soldiers votes
Posted By: sm and very bothered on 2008-10-29
In Reply to:
you know, on the news last evening, in a very mild manner, it was mentioned that maybe only 30% of the overseas military's votes will be counted this election, due to mail problems, time constraints, etc. OUTRAGEOUS!!! To boot, this also happened 4 yr ago, and still no one has fixed it (tho 1 senator is allegedly trying). Where are all the hanging chad type screaming complaints, the concern for the (hate this word now): disenfranchised???? IMO this would not be a hard problem to fix, so why is it still broke? A soldier's vote should be most definitely counted, WITHOUT FAIL. Grrrrrr. not to mention, that in Ohio, reported also last night, the homeless can now list their park benches as their addresses, and vote. Mind you, you cannot collect help in the form of welfare/food stamps etc without a solid normal address, but you can vote. nevermind that the homeless are likely uninformed. (don't feed or house them, just give them a ballot and tell them who to vote for...) all the while, our military's votes are casually tossed aside, with an "oh well..." i am still fuming the next day.
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Most of his votes are not voting votes....
nm
O's votes support his claims. JM's votes support Bush.
Believe what you like. Voting records tell the tale. Could use a few more details on that budget. Just what programs will he slash and and how many tax dollars will be directed away from middle class and in the direction of the rich? How much longer can the infrastructure afford to crumble?
JM adopted O's withdrawal plan when he saw how well it went over with the public in an election year. He flipped on the war once. What's to stop him from flipping again once elected? The nation is war weary. Some prefer a surge in diplomacy, not military answers to diplomatic failures. Ask the Iraqis who have lost more than 100,000 among them how sucessful the war has been. Obama has always understood that the OBL/Taliban live in Afganistan, not Iraq. JM, a little slow on the draw there.
I see nothing in JMs platform that backs his claims about transparency. I see specific plan on the O side under technology initiatives, continued initiatives which originated under Clinton and were reversed during the undercover Bush administration. Pork barrel spending for pubs means something different than it does to dems. Slash the poor to give to the rich? Hard seel in the current economic frefall. Also find nothing in JM's plan to address runaway contract corruption in Iraq. Having Halliburton and companies there props up those struggling American corporations. Show me the plan.
Antiglobal/antidiplomacy. No surprise there. This is about the futureworld, not American imperial delusions of grandeur. So much data on the drilling scam being an immediate relief for gas problems out there it is not worth addressing. Can you say T-Bone Pickens, i.e., we can't drill our way out of this one. He should know. Been an oil man all his life.
Since these are just a few, what else do you have up your sleeve?
Another way to use soldiers
Out of respect for your request, Democrat, I will call myself Starcat.
It seems to me the last sentence sums it up very well, but Bush doesn't have the guts for that, does he? Just canned questions and canned answers.
Bush Teleconference With Soldiers Staged
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press WriterThu Oct 13, 4:35 PM ET
It was billed as a conversation with U.S. troops, but the questions President Bush asked on a teleconference call Thursday were choreographed to match his goals for the war in Iraq and Saturday's vote on a new Iraqi constitution.
This is an important time, Allison Barber, deputy assistant defense secretary, said, coaching the soldiers before Bush arrived. The president is looking forward to having just a conversation with you.
Barber said the president was interested in three topics: the overall security situation in Iraq, security preparations for the weekend vote and efforts to train Iraqi troops.
As she spoke in Washington, a live shot of 10 soldiers from the Army's 42nd Infantry Division and one Iraqi soldier was beamed into the Eisenhower Executive Office Building from Tikrit — the birthplace of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.
I'm going to ask somebody to grab those two water bottles against the wall and move them out of the camera shot for me, Barber said.
A brief rehearsal ensued.
OK, so let's just walk through this, Barber said. Captain Kennedy, you answer the first question and you hand the mike to whom?
Captain Smith, Kennedy said.
Captain. Smith? You take the mike and you hand it to whom? she asked.
Captain Kennedy, the soldier replied.
And so it went.
If the question comes up about partnering — how often do we train with the Iraqi military — who does he go to? Barber asked.
That's going to go to Captain Pratt, one of the soldiers said.
And then if we're going to talk a little bit about the folks in Tikrit — the hometown — and how they're handling the political process, who are we going to give that to? she asked.
Before he took questions, Bush thanked the soldiers for serving and reassured them that the U.S. would not pull out of Iraq until the mission was complete.
So long as I'm the president, we're never going to back down, we're never going to give in, we'll never accept anything less than total victory, Bush said.
The president told them twice that the American people were behind them.
You've got tremendous support here at home, Bush said.
Less than 40 percent in an AP-Ipsos poll taken in October said they approved of the way Bush was handling Iraq. Just over half of the public now say the Iraq war was a mistake.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Thursday's event was coordinated with the Defense Department but that the troops were expressing their own thoughts. With satellite feeds, coordination often is needed to overcome technological challenges, such as delays, he said.
I think all they were doing was talking to the troops and letting them know what to expect, he said, adding that the president wanted to talk with troops on the ground who have firsthand knowledge about the situation.
The soldiers all gave Bush an upbeat view of the situation.
The president also got praise from the Iraqi soldier who was part of the chat.
Thank you very much for everything, he gushed. I like you.
On preparations for the vote, 1st Lt. Gregg Murphy of Tennessee said: Sir, we are prepared to do whatever it takes to make this thing a success. ... Back in January, when we were preparing for that election, we had to lead the way. We set up the coordination, we made the plan. We're really happy to see, during the preparation for this one, sir, they're doing everything.
On the training of Iraqi security forces, Master Sgt. Corine Lombardo from Scotia, N.Y., said to Bush: I can tell you over the past 10 months, we've seen a tremendous increase in the capabilities and the confidences of our Iraqi security force partners. ... Over the next month, we anticipate seeing at least one-third of those Iraqi forces conducting independent operations.
Lombardo told the president that she was in New York City on Nov. 11, 2001, when Bush attended an event recognizing soldiers for their recovery and rescue efforts at Ground Zero. She said the troops began the fight against terrorism in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and were proud to continue it in Iraq.
I thought you looked familiar, Bush said, and then joked: I probably look familiar to you, too.
Paul Rieckhoff, director of the New York-based Operation Truth, an advocacy group for U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, denounced the event as a carefully scripted publicity stunt. Five of the 10 U.S. troops involved were officers, he said.
If he wants the real opinions of the troops, he can't do it in a nationally televised teleconference, Rieckhoff said. He needs to be talking to the boots on the ground and that's not a bunch of captains.
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Soldiers are no different than anyone else....
in that there are those who disagree with this administration and the war. However, the overwhelming majority of the military respect the commander in chief and they believe in their mission. But, if you only watch CNN and liberal media, you will not hear from those soldiers. For every article from a liberal source you find that Bush did not listen to leaders, I can find one from a conservative source to counter. We will have to agree to disagree. I do not find this administration stubborn...I find this administration trying to stick to its guns so to speak, doing what is best in the long run for this country as far as countering terrorism. I know you do not understand nor want to understand the danger; however, I do. Every time Reid or Pelosi do something stupid, the liberal media lauds them as heroes and you can go right to the Arab news outlets and see how they pick it up and run with it. Al Qaeda must be lovin life right now. And that makes me SICK.
As to the half staff, talk about stubborness...I do not know and still do not understand why you cling to that as some kind of evidence that Bush doesn't care about the soldiers or people in Iraq, because he ordered a half staff for the VA Tech victims. And why you would say just because we have always done it that way... sheesh. Hanging onto this just screams at me that it is your problem with Bush personally and nothing else. I cannot see how you can find fault with the half staff and criticize the man for showing up at Va Tech. And..frankly...he cannot control what the governor said, but that being said...I do not understand the reaction of the left to it. But then I do not understand the reaction of the left to much of anything. I do not understand how you profess compassion for the Iraqi civilians yet want to cut and run and leave them to the terrorist thugs. That makes absolutely no sense to me. A President showing compassion for those kids at VA Tech, and you don't like that...what kind of sense does that make? The President shows compassion meeting with families of fallen soldiers, and if you look at him you can tell the toll this has all taken on him personally...if you took the time to look...not that you give a darn. I would like to say I understand you, but I don't. I used to think I did, but you have changed. It kinda reminds me of the at commercial I once saw that said: *You will be assimilated. Sadly, I believe you have been.
Who are these many soldiers?
I would be interested in knowing. I did not say you or anyone was Anti American...do not put words in my mouth. You used the word patriotic, I used it back to you. I said it was not illegal...and it is not. Congress voted for it. It is not illegal. If a soldier said it was immoral it is his right, like it is your right. However, when you talk about pulling funding when we have troops in battle, yes, I think that is unpatriotic, and if a soldier said we should pull funding, yes, I would say he was unpatriotic too. I have never heard a soldier say so. I have certainly never heard "many" soldiers call the war immoral either.
For the soldiers
As a tribute to our soldiers I felt a strong need to post this. As a prior US Army soldier I was proud of my country when I served and I am proud of all our soldiers in today's Army, and proud of anyone who decides (past, present, and future), that they love our country so much and the freedoms it offers us to give their time to the military. This is no small step. Your whole life changes in the blink of an eye (or however long it takes you to sign your name) and you will never be the same again or look at things the same as you did before.
The election recently has brought this to mind. I can remember the times my mom sending me an absentee ballot to vote and when I turned it in to my First Sergeant he looked at it and said Soldiers do not have the right to vote. You are a soldier in the Army and you will serve your country. We were "An Army of One" and our individual viewpoints do not matter. (When I joined J. Carter was president and this was the next election when Carter/Regan were running). So I threw my ballot in the garbage and followed my First Sergeant's order as a soldier is trained to do.
I have been reading that 68% of our veterans support J. McCain and only 23% support B. Obama. There is a post below that has an article that is focusing on only those 23%. In any organization you are going to have disgruntled employees, but if you were trying to judge a company would you base your decision on the few disgruntled or what the company employees have to say as a whole about their company.
Here are what some of the veterans are saying about their choices (link will follow below to the actual article) - This is how many in the military feels.
Most military will not vote for Obama, with every rule there is an exception but I personally know that the majority of the military will never vote for someone like him!
Because he is too inexperienced, and unfit to be the commander in chief of the Military!
His stance on foreign policy terrifies me!
He preaches change, but never says what that change will entail, but if you look at his record you can deduce that the change he talks about is a dumbed down version socialism, which sounds nice on paper but never works!
I’d much rather have a Commander in Chief who’s been in the military and one who knows what war is like, and McCain has 2 sons who are both in the Marine Corps and have fought in Iraq…
I’m sick of people telling me that they need to pull the troops out, when I am trying as hard as I can to rehabilitate and get back out there to finish the job! pulling us out would undo everything that we’ve worked for, everything that I sweat and bled for out there, everything that some very dear friends have died for! And by pulling us out you’d be saying that what we did didn’t amount to anything, and those lives lost were in vein.
There is a responsible way of pulling the troops out and there is an irresponsible way. If we just got pulled out of there then there would be a vacuum effect that would turn Iraq into more of a terrorist breeding ground than it ever was before, more so than even Afghanistan. And that would undo everything that we worked so hard to accomplish!!! I have been for this war from the very beginning, and even after facing death, being shot, and having all the surgeries I’ve had since I’ve been home I believe in the cause now more than ever. But even if you opposed the war to begin with we can’t abandon those people now it would be selfish, reckless, and utterly irresponsible to do so and would actually make things much worse for us in the long run.
I’m not the biggest McCain supporter there are many issues I don’t agree with him on but he at least understands all of this, he understands what we are going through over there, he understands combat, and he understands what is at stake in this war that the American people have seemingly abandoned and forgotten, not only our future but the future of an entire nation of people is at risk if we give in and pull out!
Some people don’t think it’s our responsibility to fight for other countries and stabilize their governments but as I’ve said before in previous blogs “It’s a good thing France didn’t have that attitude during our revolution, otherwise we never would have won our own Independence!!!”
Obama is not a competent Commander in Chief! You tell me what exactly he stands for???????? CHANGE? what the he!! is he gonna change? HOPE? what kind of hope? are you kidding me? he never says what the he!! he’s talking about, he just throws out what people want to hear but never provides a solution!!! Most people I talk to that say they’re gonna vote for him can’t even answer those questions, but they’re gonna vote for him because someone they know and respect says they are gonna vote for him! Why don’t you at least look into it yourself and make an educated decision! I can at least respect that! But that doesn’t seem to be the case in most people I’ve come across.
http://twana.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/veterans-against-obama/
One other note is that we need a person like McCain who will be workign towards winning the war and bring our troops home as the hero's they are. Not Obama's idea of pulling them all out irresponsibly and then they'll end up like the soldier's after the Vietnam War. They'll be called everything you can thing of (invader's, murderers, etc.). They'll be treated the same exact way the soldier's were treated from the Vietnam War.
I pray for our troops every day, and will pray until the election is over the the right person (McCain), will win this election.
Do you actually know any soldiers?
Are you honestly suggesting that the soldiers who are on the front lines are less informed than you are?
You think you 'have more opportunity to see the big picture and the real motives behind it' than the men and women putting their lives on the line.
Lady, please get a grip.
Maybe go volunteer at a VA Hospital. Then perhaps you will stop preaching your uninformed views from your keyboard.
I am sure that our soldiers would sm
rather shoot these terrorists too. They can't, they have to do what they have to do to get information out of them.
I can think a whole lot worse I would do to them that would get the information out of them a whole lot faster. Think I will save that though.
Sounds like you want to create a military force of a bunch of "mamby pambies" who do nothing but make sure the terrorists/prisoners are so comfy in their little beds. Good grief should we sing them to sleep to?
What do you think they do to Americans when they capture them? A whole lot more than we ever do to them. Come down to reality will ya?
Yes, our soldiers deserved better.
I think these are fallen soldiers...nm
Tell that to the soldiers there who have heard
##
And you know this, how? Talk to the soldiers
We have several in our town who have been stationed down there and they will certainly tell you it scares the he!! out of them to see Obama is shutting Gitmo down. They personally have heard those incarcerated bragging about what has been done and laughing at the U.S. til the next attack when they heard Obama is closing it down.
Yea, why don't ya just feel sorry for all those poor guys down there, right up until the next attack!
Winter Soldiers
Short script on article of our war on terror - a sad commentary on what is really going on and how our soldiers are responding to it.......
http://www.truthout.org/031709A
Winter Soldiers Speak Out in Europe
Tuesday 17 March 2009
by: Maya Schenwar, t r u t h o u t | Report
![US]( "US") Pennsylvania before the Winter Solider hearings last March." src=http://www.truthout.org/files/images/A1_031709A.jpg>US veterans march from Philadelphia to Valley Forge before the Winter Solider hearings last March. (Photo: Susie Husted)
Last March, a group of soldiers and veterans gathered in Washington, DC, to recount their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. They spent three days testifying, confessing and mourning. They revealed atrocities never before spoken of - the brutal murders of civilians, the destruction of homes and villages, the rape and sexual assault of both civilians and US military women - and displayed photos and video footage to back up their claims. The event was titled "Winter Soldier," harkening back to the 1971 Winter Soldier Investigation, in which veterans gathered in Detroit to give testimony about war crimes they had committed or witnessed in Vietnam. Both Winter Soldiers zeroed in on the US military policy's devastating effects, straight from the mouths of those charged with carrying out that policy.
Full article excerpt can be found at: http://www.truthout.org/031709A
Yeah, and also I wonder how these soldiers would feel...sm
about the party who CLAIMS to support them but disrespect their families when they speak out. After all, did they not fight so freedoms like, freedom of speech, would be guaranteed?
I understand that families speaking out are not protected from retort but it is hypocritical to accuse liberals of not supporting the troops when you are the ones blasting fallen soldier's families. What do they just *support* conservative soldiers with conservative families???
I'm just sayin'
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers..sm
I have mixed feelings about this y'all. There is no doubt in my mind that mental issues are involved given the situation. However, they could have just been following orders. Or, worse just murdered the Iraqis on their own volition and threatened a fellow soldier.
Definitely worth the investigation, which sends the message that we (the US) does not tolerate this type behavior from our soldiers.
---------------------------------
Murder charges for 3 U.S. soldiers
They are accused of killing 3 Iraqis
Julian E. Barnes, Los Angeles Times
Tuesday, June 20, 2006
(06-20) 04:00 PDT Washington -- Three U.S. soldiers have been charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqi detainees as well as with threatening the life of a fellow soldier who they feared would challenge their accounts of the deaths, military officials said Monday.
The three Americans were identified as staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Spc. William B. Hunsaker and Pfc. Corey R. Clagett, all members of the 3rd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division. They were charged with shooting the detainees May 9 during a military operation near Thar Thar Canal in Salahuddin province north of Baghdad.
A murder conviction in the military carries the possibility of the death penalty. The accused soldiers are being held in Kuwait, a Pentagon official said. No personal information was available Monday about the soldiers.
The latest charges come as the military is conducting a separate investigation of the killing of 24 civilians in Haditha in November. Military investigators are examining possible murder charges against a group of Marines for those deaths. In addition, seven other marines and a Navy corpsman are being held in the brig at Camp Pendleton (San Diego County) in connection with the death of an Iraqi man in another town, Hamandiya. Since the start of the Iraq war, the military has brought criminal charges against at least 20 other service members in deaths of Iraqis.
Military officials first mentioned the Salahuddin investigation in a brief news release June 16. But details of how the three soldiers shot the men, near the Muthana Chemical Complex, have remained sketchy. The military has not said why the three Iraqis were being detained.
In addition to murder, the soldiers were charged with conspiracy and with threatening another soldier. Military officials said the accused initially reported they shot the detainees while they were trying to flee.
But that account was contradicted by a junior soldier who saw the shooting. Defense Department charge sheets released Monday identify the object of the threats as Bradley Mason, an Army private first class. The legal papers do not specify whether Mason is the soldier who witnessed the killings.
The accused soldiers are charged with threatening to kill Mason on May 29, as the group was traveling from its own operating base to Camp Speicher, near Tikrit, where the Criminal Investigation Division has an office.
You better not say anything, or I swear I will kill you, Girouard allegedly told Mason, according to charge sheets.
Girouard is accused of threatening to kill Mason six different times in the weeks after the detainees died. Hunsaker is accused of threatening Mason four times, and Clagett twice.
They face a hearing to determine if there is enough evidence for a court-martial. The first proceeding, known as an Article 32 hearing, is likely several weeks away, a military officer said.
The military has not executed anyone since April 1961, but nine people are on death row, including a sergeant in the 101st Airborne who killed two officers and wounded 14 soldiers in Kuwait in March 2003.
These are fallen soldiers not WTC victims
And the why is pretty clear. By the way, this was addressed to Liberals who definitely understand and appreciate the ***why***
Yet many soldiers also call the war immoral and
.
Young soldiers I know personally and on TV. Many
many of them felt very differently when they first went to war. After coming back they seem to come back with a very different view. Most of the soldiers I know think the war needs to end. I don't think most Americans think we should stop funding the war until the soldiers come home, and that's just it, many of us want them to come home! I watched a documentary on Showtime called Semper Fi, and it was a really moving account of a proud Marine's time in Iraq. I would definitely recommend watching it if you want to hear a first-hand account of how one patriotic soldier was disillusioned by the war and how he was given false information over and over again by his higher-ups. I don't claim to know the solution, and I know none of the candidates on either side have the perfect solution either, but I just feel that we are not making the progress we should be making, kids' mothers and fathers are dying every day in Iraq, and it makes me incredibly sad. Simple as that. I don't think we have any right to be there. I do believe we had a right to go to Afganistan, but not Iraq. That's just my feeling, and I really don't feel like getting into a huge debate about the war. I just want it to end.
Very sad. Our soldiers are giving their lives....sm
and they are coming home severly injured to less than adequate medical care after excellent care in the field, no psychological counseling, no support for their families, deplorable living conditions, and on and on. I believe this war is wrong but support the troops 100%. Disgraceful!
I fully support our soldiers -
As I have said before, I have a son who just graduated basic training last week, I was a soldier's wife for 20 years (one who served in the Gulf War during our marriage and is currently in Iraq now), and my father served in the Korean war, but I still think that the Iraq war is pointless and we do not need to be there. I don't think we should ever have been there, but definitely should be home now.
Even the Iraqi people don't want us to get out and come home and let them handle their own country.
Hating the war does not mean hating the soldiers - it means wanting the ones that are left to be home and alive and in one piece!
We have brought home 2 soldiers
recently to our town, unfortunately, it was too late for them.
LOL. 3 more votes....obviously you ...
don't know who the heck she is....lol.
only two votes...
regardless of the weight of their votes, it was a "yes" to a bill that should be better. i still want to know what the crap this "tax exemption for wooden arrows made for use by children" is all about????
Waiting to get blown up...from a soldiers mouth..sm
BAGHDAD, July 26 Army Staff Sgt. Jose Sixtos considered the simple question about morale for more than an hour. But not until his convoy of armored Humvees had finally rumbled back into the Baghdad military base, and the soldiers emptied the ammunition from their machine guns, and passed off the bomb-detecting robot to another patrol, did he turn around in his seat and give his answer.
Think of what you hate most about your job. Then think of doing what you hate most for five straight hours, every single day, sometimes twice a day, in 120-degree heat, he said. Then ask how morale is.
Frustrated? You have no idea, he said.
As President Bush plans to deploy more troops in Baghdad, U.S. soldiers who have been patrolling the capital for months describe a deadly and infuriating mission in which the enemy is elusive and success hard to find. Each day, convoys of Humvees and Bradley Fighting Vehicles leave Forward Operating Base Falcon in southern Baghdad with the goal of stopping violence between warring Iraqi religious sects, training the Iraqi army and police to take over the duty, and reporting back on the availability of basic services for Iraqi civilians.
But some soldiers in the 2nd Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, 1st Armored Division -- interviewed over four days on base and on patrols -- say they have grown increasingly disillusioned about their ability to quell the violence and their reason for fighting. The battalion of more than 750 people arrived in Baghdad from Kuwait in March, and since then, six soldiers have been killed and 21 wounded.
It sucks. Honestly, it just feels like we're driving around waiting to get blown up. That's the most honest answer I could give you, said Spec. Tim Ivey, 28, of San Antonio, a muscular former backup fullback for Baylor University. You lose a couple friends and it gets hard.
No one wants to be here, you know, no one is truly enthused about what we do, said Sgt. Christopher Dugger, the squad leader. We were excited, but then it just wears on you -- there's only so much you can take. Like me, personally, I want to fight in a war like World War II. I want to fight an enemy. And this, out here, he said, motioning around the scorched sand-and-gravel base, the rows of Humvees and barracks, toward the trash-strewn streets of Baghdad outside, there is no enemy, it's a faceless enemy. He's out there, but he's hiding.
We're trained as an Army to fight and destroy the enemy and then take over, added Dugger, 26, of
Reno, Nev. But I don't think we're trained enough to push along a country, and that's what we're actually doing out here.
It's frustrating, but we are definitely a help to these people, he said. I'm out here with the guys that I know so well, and I couldn't picture myself being anywhere else.
'Never-Ending Battle'
After a five-hour patrol on Saturday through southern Baghdad neighborhoods, soldiers from the 1st Platoon sat on wooden benches in an enclosed porch outside their barracks. Faces flushed and dirty from the grit and a beating sun, they smoked cigarettes and tossed them at a rusted can that said Butts.
The commanders in Baghdad and the Pentagon are looking at the big picture all the time, but for us, we don't see no big picture, it's just always another bomb out here, said Spec. Joshua Steffey, 24, of Asheville, N.C. The company's commanding officer, Capt. Douglas A. DiCenzo of Plymouth, N.H., and his gunner, Spec. Robert E. Blair of Ocala, Fla., were killed by a roadside bomb in May.
Steffey said he wished somebody would explain to us, 'Hey, this is what we're working for.' With a stream of expletives, he said he could not care less if Iraq's free or if they're a democracy.
I mean, if you compare the casualty count from this war to, say, World War II, you know obviously it doesn't even compare, Fulcher said. But World War II, the big picture was clear -- you know you're fighting because somebody was trying to take over the world, basically. This is like, what did we invade here for?
How did it become, 'Well, now we have to rebuild this place from the ground up'? Fulcher asked.
He kept talking. They say we're here and we've given them freedom, but really what is that? You know, what is freedom? You've got kids here who can't go to school. You've got people here who don't have jobs anymore. You've got people here who don't have power, he said. You know, so yeah, they've got freedom now, but when they didn't have freedom, everybody had a job.
Steffey got up to leave the porch and go to bed.
You know, the point is we've lost too many Americans here already, we're committed now. So whatever the [expletive] end-state is, whatever it is, we need to achieve it -- that way they didn't die for nothing, he said. We're far too deep in this now....
Yeah!! Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming...
Got to get down to it - get rid of the current regime!!!!
And where do these "fresh" soldiers exist? Appalachia?
You seem to forget some of our troops have served 5 tours.......Army personnel are committing suicide at an alarming rate.....there is no draft....the whole premise for the war on Iraq was based on deceit.....can't you dig up some other reason to hate Obama? Your arguments are becoming less and less convincing...even though they have been transparent BS from the get go, IMHO.
Iraqi Soldiers Speak Out in Favor of Murtha
On January 5, 2006, Congressman Murtha held a town hall meeting with Cong. Jim Moran (D-VA 08).
The soldier who asked the first question served in Afghanistan and said that morale among troops is high and that he would gladly serve in Iraq today. His comment was the only one replayed by Fox News the next day.
But the majority of soldiers in attendance spoke out against the current policy. Fox News did not broadcast their remarks.
Here are some excerpts.
John Brumes, Infantry Sgt. US Army:
Everything that the Bush Adminstration told us about that mission in Iraq is absolutely incorrect. Furthermore, I'd like to say ... I came home to no job, no health insurance. Until we take care of this war, we can't take care of the problems that matter like health care.
I've witnessed both ends... Congressman Murtha, I implore you to keep doing what you're doing.
John Powers, Capt. 1st Armored Division, served 12 months in Iraq:
The thing that hits me the most is the accountability. ... Where is the accountability for those men [who took us to war], as well as where is the accountability for Paul Bremmer, who misplaced millions of dollars and claims to keep accountability in the war zone?... I know that if we lost $500 we would be court marshaled. So where is the accountability for this leadership?
Garin Reppenhagen, served as a sniper in Iraq for a year in the First Infantry Division:
My question is also about accountability. The soldiers that you see, Congressman Murtha, at the hospitals... those are my friends. After coming back, being a veteran, my question is why? Why did we go to this war, why the hell did it happen, why are we in this condition. A lot of soldiers are debating whether this war was fraudulent to begin with. And there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. A lot of Americans now are debating the fact over whether or not the war was fraudulent in the first place. How come there hasn't been an investigation on the fraudulent lead up to the war by this Administration?
C-SPAN has the full broadcast here.
Halliburton Didn't Protect Soldiers' Water
(I wonder what else they won't protect if/when they're put in charge after the Dubai deal goes through. And I believe Bush will find a way to push it through right under Americans' noses, since I believe his loyalty lies clearly with rich Arabs and not with the safety of Americans.)
Updated:2006-03-16 07:52:03
Halliburton Didn't Protect Soldiers' Water
Internal Memo Warns of 'Mass Sickness or Death'
ap
WASHINGTON (March 16) - Halliburton Co. failed to protect the water supply it is paid to purify for U.S. soldiers throughout Iraq, in one instance missing contamination that could have caused mass sickness or death, an internal company report concluded.
The report, obtained by The Associated Press, said the company failed to assemble and use its own water purification equipment, allowing contaminated water directly from the Euphrates River to be used for washing and laundry at Camp Ar Ramadi in Ramadi, Iraq.
The problems discovered last year at that site - poor training, miscommunication and lax record keeping - occurred at Halliburton's other operations throughout Iraq, the report said.
Countrywide, all camps suffer to some extent from all or some of the deficiencies noted, Wil Granger, Theatre Water Quality Manager in the war zone for Halliburton's KBR subsidiary, wrote in his May 2005 report.
AP reported earlier this year allegations from whistleblowers about the Camp Ar Ramadi incident, but Halliburton never made public Granger's internal report alleging wider problems.
The water quality expert warned Halliburton the problems will have to be dealt with at a very elevated level of management to protect health and safety of U.S. personnel.
Halliburton said Wednesday it conducted a second review last year that found no evidence of any illnesses in Iraq from water and it believes some of its earlier conclusions were incomplete and inaccurate. The company declined to release the second report.
The company said it has worked closely with the Army to develop standards and take action to ensure that the water provided in Iraq is safe and of the highest quality possible.
Halliburton was headed by Vice President Dick Cheney for several years before he ran for vice president. Its KBR subsidiary, also known as Kellogg Brown & Root, works under contract to provide a number of services to the U.S. military in Iraq, including providing water and purifying it.
The contaminated, non-chlorinated water at Ar Ramadi was discovered in March 2005 in a commode by Ben Carter, a KBR water expert at the base. In an interview, Carter said he resigned after KBR barred him from notifying the military and senior company officials about the untreated water.
A supervisor at Ar Ramadi told me to stop e-mailing company officials outside the base and warned that informing the military was none of my concern, Carter said. He said he threatened to sue if company officials didn't let him be examined to determine whether he suffered medical problems from exposure to the contaminated water.
Granger's report cited several countrywide problems:
A lack of training for key personnel. Theatre wide there is no formalized training for anyone at any level in concerns to water operations.
Confusion between KBR and military officials over their respective roles. For instance, each assumed the other would chlorinate the water at Ar Ramadi for any uses that would require the treatment.
Inadequate or nonexistent records that could have caught problems in advance. Little or no documentation was kept on water inventories, safety stand-downs, audits of water quality, deliveries, inspections and logs showing alterations or modifications to water systems.
Relying on employees the company identified as semiskilled labor, and paid as unskilled workers in the pay structure.
The report said the event at Ar Ramadi could have been prevented if KBR's Reverse Osmosis Units on the site had been assembled, instead of relying on the military's water production facilities.
This event should be considered a 'near miss' as the consequences of these actions could have been very severe resulting in mass sickness or death, Granger wrote.
The report said that KBR officials at Ar Ramadi tried to keep the contamination from senior company officials.
The event that was submitted in a report to local camp management should have been classified as a recordable occurrence and communicated to senior management in a timely manner, Granger wrote. The primary awareness to this event came through threat of domestic litigation.
Beginning last May, Halliburton said it began using its equipment to remove contaminants, bacteria, and viruses in Ar Ramadi, and disinfect the water with chlorine. The company said KBR has worked closely with the Army to develop safe water standards.
It said its subsequent review in August-September 2005 found nonpotable water used for washing was effectively filtered to remove at least 99 percent of the parasite giardia and 90 percent of viruses. The Ar Ramadi water also tested negative for bacteria, Halliburton added.
Iraqi Colleagues Killed U.S. Soldiers, Military Says
And 19 Republican senators and a conservative poster crashing this this board think that monsters like this should receive amnesty for killing our soldiers. Unbelievable.
Iraqi colleagues killed U.S. soldiers, military says
SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found.
The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.
But the Army's Criminal Investigation Command found that one or more of the Iraqis attached to the American soldiers on patrol fired at them, a military official said Tuesday. (Watch a mother's quest for truth -- 1:26)
A Pentagon spokesman knew of no other similar incident, calling it extremely rare.
The Army has conducted an extensive investigation into the deaths but declined to provide details out of respect for relatives of the soldiers, spokesman Paul Boyce said Tuesday evening.
It was unclear whether the investigators had established a motive or arrested any suspects.
The families of McCaffrey and Tyson were to be briefed on the report's conclusions Tuesday and Wednesday by Brig. Gen. Oscar Hilman, the soldiers' commander at the time, and three other officers.
When they come I have my list of questions ready, and I want these answers and I don't want lies, McCaffrey's mother, Nadia McCaffrey, said.
Soldiers who witnessed the attack have told her that two Iraqi patrolmen opened fire on her son's unit. The witnesses also said a third gunman simultaneously drove up to the American unit in a van, climbed onto the vehicle and fired at the Americans, she said.
Nothing is clear. Nothing is clear, she said. Her son was shot eight times by bullets of various calibers, some of which penetrated his body armor, she said. She believes he bled to death.
Nadia McCaffrey has become a vocal critic of the war in Iraq, and said her son had reservations about it, too, though he served well and was promoted posthumously to sergeant.
I really want this story to come out; I want people to know what happened to my son, she said. There is no doubt to me that this (ambushes by attached Iraqi units) is still happening to soldiers today, but our chain of command is awfully reckless; they don't seem to give a damn about what's happening to soldiers.
Iraqi forces who had trained with the Americans had fired at them twice before the incident that killed Patrick McCaffrey, and he had reported it to his superiors, she said.
Boyce said the U.S. military remained confident in its operations with Iraqis.
We continue to have confidence in our operations with Iraqi soldiers and have witnessed the evolution of a stronger fighting army for the Iraqi people, he said.
Patrick McCaffrey joined the National Guard the day after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, his mother said.
Tyson's family could not be located, and a message left with his former unit was not immediately returned.
McCaffrey, 34, and Tyson, 33, were members of the California National Guard. Both were assigned to the Army National Guard's 579th Engineer Battalion, based in Petaluma.
Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, pressed the Pentagon for answers about the case when Nadia McCaffrey was unsatisfied by explanations from the military.
Mrs. McCaffrey is set to receive a briefing from Pentagon officials (Wednesday) afternoon in California, during which we hope they will provide her with a full report of the facts surrounding Sgt. McCaffrey's death, said Natalie Ravitz, a Boxer spokeswoman.
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. |
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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/soldiers.ambushed.ap/index.html |
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Iraqi PM says Reckles soldiers should stay home.
So much for all that *winning their hearts and minds* talk. 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060706/wl_nm/iraq_maliki_dc_2
Reckless soldiers should stay home: Iraqi PM
By Ibon Villelabeitia
Thu Jul 6, 1:41 PM ET
Iraq's prime minister urged the U.S. military on Thursday to keep reckless troops from serving in Iraq in order to prevent abuses like the alleged rape and murder of a teenager and her family by U.S. soldiers in March.
Expanding on calls for an independent inquiry and a review of foreign troops' immunity from Iraqi law, Nuri al-Maliki said commanders should do a better job in preparing their soldiers.
There needs to be a plan to educate and train soldiers, and those who are brought to serve in Iraq shouldn't bear prejudices nor be reckless toward people's honor, Maliki said.
The U.S. military is investigating a group of its soldiers over the rape and killing of a family of four in Mahmudiya, south of the capital, in a case that has strained relations between Washington and Baghdad.
Former private Steven Green, 21, has been charged with rape and murder in a U.S. federal court. He had been discharged from the army because of a personality disorder before the case came to light.
At least three other soldiers are being investigated in the case.
The Mahmudiya incident and other incidents before that ... produce sadness, pain and condemnation from Iraqis, Maliki said.
IMMUNITY
Maliki, facing pressure from Shi'ites and Sunnis to hold Americans accountable, has slammed a U.S. occupation authority decree that grants immunity from Iraqi law for the 140,000 or so foreign troops in Iraq, saying it emboldens soldiers.
I think this matter has become necessary to review and solve, either by reviewing the issue of immunity or reviewing the nature of the investigating committees, he told reporters in Baghdad, a day after he first called for a review of the law.
The rape and murder case is the fifth in a high-profile series of U.S. inquiries into killings of Iraqi civilians in recent months and has outraged Iraqis.
American commanders, keen to repair the military's tarnished image after three years of complaints from Iraqis that U.S. abuses go unpunished, pressed murder charges against 12 military personnel last month. Marines are under investigation for the killing of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha.
Iraqis have complained of Americans' lack of cultural sensitivity -- including searching women's rooms during raids or not taking their boots off when entering. Commanders say they are improving such procedures.
Though heavily dependent on America's military muscle, Maliki faces delicate negotiations with its main ally Washington over how to regulate the presence of the U.S.-led forces in Iraq, now under a U.N. mandate that expires in December.
Copyright © 2006 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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A lot of death & destruction over 2 kidnapped (captured) soldiers isn't it?nm
z
About Face: Soldiers Call for Iraq Withdrawal
For the first time since Vietnam, an organized, robust movement of active-duty US military personnel has publicly surfaced to oppose a war in which they are serving. Those involved plan to petition Congress to withdraw American troops from Iraq. (Note: A complete version of this report will appear Thursday in the print and online editions of The Nation.)
After appearing only seven weeks ago on the Internet, the Appeal for Redress, brainchild of 29-year-old Navy seaman Jonathan Hutto, has already been signed by nearly 1,000 US soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen, including dozens of officers--most of whom are on active duty. Not since 1969, when some 1,300 active-duty military personnel signed an open letter in the New York Times opposing the war in Vietnam, has there been such a dramatic barometer of rising military dissent.
Interviews with two dozen signers of the Appeal reveal a mix of motives for opposing the war: ideological, practical, strategic and moral. But all those interviewed agree that it is time to start withdrawing the troops. Coming from an all-volunteer military, the Appeal was called unprecedented by Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.
Lets talk about the torture of our soldiers by our enemies
Electrocution, beatings, broken bones, etc, etc, oh and their favorite of all times....beheadings.
The witch hunt should end here. What happened, happened. It's done and your god is in their now. I may have not liked what went on in the last administration (reason why I voted them out), but there is no reason to burn Bush/Cheney at the stake. What the other side does is 100 times worse.
And why would we thank him when it took 217 votes for this to pass?
nm
It does not matter who votes for it or against it....
it is morally wrong. Because it is legal does not make it right. While I will obey the law of the land, as my faith teaches me to do, I will continue to speak out against a procedure that is murder, no matter who chooses it. See link if you do not believe that life begins at conception. View that and tell me that abortion is not killing a living baby and then defend it as right because someone chooses it. That choice is choosing to kill a child. The one portion of this. If you feel that a woman needs a choice of whether or not to kill a baby, so be it, that is your right and I respect your right to say it. I do not and will continue to speak against it, and I hope that you believe it is my right to do that as well. Some of us must speak for the most innocent who cannot speak for themselves.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=76c82299-9a7a-4656-8ec4-0f6fc1fd6ae0&f=06/64&fg=copy
If it doesn't, whoever votes against it
will probably have a severe media backlash. They made these changes so that the two main arguments - that it covers illegal immigrants and rich people - are discredited. If it doesn't pass, I'm sure they're going to have to deal with the media.
90% yes, but most of the votes were unanimous, so
nm
Only 11 more votes and it would have passed. nm
.
They are reporting they have the 12 votes they need. sm
Just like the Senate, they are making it clear they do not care what their constituents think. The peasants need to start getting mad and show up with their torches and pitchforks.
The more votes they get, the more viable they become. sm
I would still rather vote my principles than hold my nose and vote for a Nazi and a Communist.
Well I wish they could get enough votes to become viable but (sm)
I doubt that they will. I understand your feelings though because I share in them. I just feel like I have to at least choose one as better than the other and make my vote count, because one or the other of them is going to win, and I feel like right now every vote is needed.
If we could just get their votes counted
sure would be a wonderful thing for them. How many of their votes already been disqualified in Virginia, I believe I heard 200,000?
With over 200 electorial votes sm
Obama is most likely the winner. I,too, congratulate him and Mr. Biden on their apparent victory, although I may not be happy about it. I just pray our country can survive what is coming.
We could only hope votes would be
changed, but don't think very many states allow that.
When all is said and done, I bet the total of ALL votes in MN will be....
more than the total of registered voters in the entire state of MN. Come on, give us a break. Do you honestly expect us to believe there are that many "missing" ballots? This has been going on since November 5. Where could those pesky 1,000 votes have been hidden all this time, blast those nasty votes.
That said, I have a question....with all this back room hocus-pocus, will the Republicans be able to filibuster? There are not 60 Dems yet are there?
Soldiers flee to Canada to avoid Iraq duty
Soldiers flee to Canada to avoid Iraq duty
Duncan Campbell
Tuesday March 28, 2006
Guardian Hundreds of deserters from the US armed forces have crossed into Canada and are now seeking political refugee status there, arguing that violations of the rules of war in Iraq by the US entitle them to asylum.
A decision on a test case involving two US servicemen is due shortly and is being watched with interest by fellow servicemen on both sides of the border. At least 20 others have already applied for asylum and there are an estimated 400 in Canada out of more than 9,000 who have deserted since the conflict started in 2003.
Ryan Johnson, 22, from near Fresno in California, was due to be deployed with his unit to Iraq in January last year but crossed the Canadian border in June and is seeking asylum. I had spoken to many soldiers who had been in Iraq and who told me about innocent civilians being killed and about bombing civilian neighbourhoods, he told the Guardian.
It's been really great since I've been here. Generally, people have been really hospitable and understanding, although there have been a few who have been for the war. He is now unable to return to the US. I don't have a problem with that. I'm in Canada and that's that.
Mr Johnson said it was unclear exactly how many US soldiers were in Canada but he thought 400 was a realistic figure. He had been on speaking tours across the country as part of a war resisters' movement and had come across other servicemen living underground.
Jeffry House, a Toronto lawyer who represents many of the men, said that an increasing number were seeking asylum. There are a fair number without status and a fair number on student visas, he said, and under UN guidelines on refugee status they were entitled to seek asylum.
The first test cases involve Jeremy Hinzman, 26, who deserted from the 82 Airborne Division and Brandon Hughey from the 1st Cavalry Division. A decision on their applications is due within the next few weeks. If they are turned down the case will be taken to the federal appeal court and the Canadian supreme court, according to Mr House, a process that would last into next year at least.
All deserters, past and present, are placed on an FBI wanted list. Earlier this month, Allen Abney, 56, who deserted from the US marines 38 years ago during the Vietnam war, was arrested as he crossed into the US, a journey he had taken many times before without problem. He was held in a military jail in California for a few days, then discharged.
They have resuscitated long-dormant warrants, said Mr House. I know 15 people personally who have crossed 10 or more times without problems and then all of a sudden they are arresting people. It seems like it would be connected to Iraq.
Lee Zaslofsky, 61, the coordinator of the War Resisters' Support Campaign in Toronto, said that he was impressed by the young men who were seeking asylum. Some have been to Iraq and others have heard what goes on there, he said. Mainly, what they discuss is being asked to do things they consider repugnant. Most are quite patriotic ... Many say they feel tricked by the military.
During the Vietnam war between 50,000 and 60,000 Americans crossed the border to avoid serving.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1740986,00.html
19 Republicans vote in favor of amnesty for those who kill our soldiers.
In the Senate today, 19 Senators voted that it was okay for the Iraqi government to give amnesty to anyone known to have attacked, killed or injured American soldiers, and every single one of them was a Republican. I guess this is an example of how Republicans *support* the troops. The only one that truly surprises me is McCain. He must have lost his mind since he began pandering to those who believe they are Bush's *base.*
Vote Summary:
Question: On the Amendment (Nelson (FL) Amdt. No. 4265 )
Vote Number: 178 Vote Date: June 20, 2006, 03:27 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Agreed to
Amendment Number:S.Amdt. 4265 to S. 2766 (National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 )
Statement of Purpose: To express the sense of Congress that the Government of Iraq should not grant amnesty to persons known to have attacked, killed, or wounded members of the Armed Forces of the United States.
Vote Counts: YEAs 79
NAYs: 19
Not Voting: 2
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State
Grouped By Vote Position
NAYs ---19
Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
DeMint (R-SC)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Hagel (R-NE)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
McCain (R-AZ)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)
Thomas (R-WY)
Warner (R-VA)
Not Voting--- 2
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Shelby (R-AL)
YEAs ---79
Akaka (D-HI)
Alexander (R-TN)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brownback (R-KS)
Burr (R-NC)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
Dayton (D-MN)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Ensign (R-NV)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Frist (R-TN)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McConnell (R-KY)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Wyden (D-OR)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/06/20/19-gop-senators-vote-agai_n_23445.html
Soldiers and peace officers pledging to refuse to obey sm
An invitation to soldiers and peace officers across the United States to pledge to refuse illegal orders – including "state of emergency" orders that could include disarming or detaining American citizens – has struck a chord, collecting more than 100,000 website visitors in a little over a week and hundreds of e-mails daily.
Link to article: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91530
Oath Keepers website: http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/03/oath-keepers-declaration-of-orders-we.html
Votes counted by hand is the only way sm
by someone not getting money from the government. They were never able to call the state of New Hampshire on the news because their votes were all counted by hand. I am not sure if they still do it that way. Votefraud.org specializes on this issue, and there is lots of information there.
Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything.
—Communist tyrant and mass murderer Josef Stalin
Let's wait and see how than relates in votes....
shall we? :-)
Every senator on the floor during these votes....
has the identical experience Obama has. Does not make them foreign policy experts. How many times does someone have to say she was at the state level? She has as much foreign policy experience as Bill Clinton did when he was elected PRESIDENT. Geez. Your #1 guy has done...that is why he has Biden. He has never made an executive decision in his life, even in his campaign other than I am Barack Obama and approved this message.
John McCain is the only one of them, including Biden, with real and extended foreign policy experience. He has actually met with world leaders, not run the foreign relations committee. He is already known and respected worldwide. That is a no-brainer...and HE is the one running for the job.
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