and a Bible study is not a church either sm
Posted By: Christian MT on 2009-05-29
In Reply to: sm... - cj
There is a difference. Its about CHRISTIAN persecution!
Complete Discussion Below:  marks the location of current message within thread
The messages you are viewing
are archived/old.
To view latest messages and participate in discussions, select
the boards given in left menu
Other related messages found in our database
Since when did a Bible study..........sm
become a business meeting?
Bible studies, in case you didn't know, are not the same as Sunday morning meetings. They are for discussion and study of the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. Collection plates are not passed and church business is not generally discussed at Bible studies. Churches do have business meetings, however, in which church business is discussed and that is normally done in the church building. Since, as you point out, churches do not pay taxes, then that would, in my estimation, eliminate them as being a business, so therefore, a Bible study is not a business or business meeting. Apart from the subject matter, it is no different than 10 or 15 good old boys getting together on a Sunday afternoon to watch the races on Bubba's big-screen TV.
I read the article and the questions the law officer asked related specifically to a religious organization. I don't remember seeing where he asked if collections were taken during the meeting, only if they prayed, read the Bible, etc. This very much sounds to me like targeting a Christian group, nothing less. I hope the pastor asks his neighbors if they called the police because that is exactly what sounds like happened.
Having Bible study is NOT a business.....
Are you actually so lame that you believe you have to be in a church to have Bible study? Maybe you need to go to one then.
If Bible study were a business, then having a meeting for cub scouts, girl scouts, weekly poker get togethers would be a business then wouldn't it?
Please...... you and those like you are the problem. They have no beliefs whatsoever in anything and couldn't care less if religious freedom is stripped from us or not.
What a shame! By the way, last time I checked, gays and lesbians have the same rights I do..... they are free to go to Bible study too!!
again, a Bible study at someones house sm
is not a church service. There shouldn't be collecting money, etc. etc.
If the government keeps this stuff up and the folks that support this kind of stuff keep on, it will be one day where you can't even have a family gathering at your house without a permit!
What if half your neighborhood has 15-20 people at their house for all the holidays? Going by what you have posted, that would be a dangerous situation. Aer there enough exits, proper fire extinguishers, etc. etc. People do it all the time. Its called socializing!
Again this is nothing but a serious effort to stop Christians from gathering at all. Nothing but Satan at work.
again, a Bible study at someones house sm
is not a church service. There shouldn't be collecting money, etc. etc.
If the government keeps this stuff up and the folks that support this kind of stuff keep on, it will be one day where you can't even have a family gathering at your house without a permit!
What if half your neighborhood has 15-20 people at their house for all the holidays? Going by what you have posted, that would be a dangerous situation. Aer there enough exits, proper fire extinguishers, etc. etc. People do it all the time. Its called socializing!
Again this is nothing but a serious effort to stop Christians from gathering at all. Nothing but Satan at work.
County trying to STOP home Bible study in
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html
Running from church to church is not the answer...sm
There are problems and controversy in every church. I do not agree with things that go on in my church nor everything that my pastor says or does. I have found that some churches problems are greater than the ones in your own church, so some times you have to be still.
Here's one for ya....Me along with plenty of other Americans don't agree with what our current President Bush has done in terms of running our country, starting a war, making history by putting every state in this country in a negative deficit, and I could continue to go on, but the point is even in our disagreement with him, we have not jumped up and ran to another country and we wonder why; running is not the answer. First off it is not our place to condemn one, but since someone is being condemned for what was said, condemn the Rev. Wright, not Obama.
study up on the NDC and no, I won't do your
__
brain study
I read a study where they did brain scans on democrats and republicans and while scanning showed pictures of war. The republican brains lit up on the opposite side than the democrat brains. So, the study surmised that just maybe our brains were built to work differently and that could be why we have a take on things so radically differently. I will try to find the article and post the net address.
We all better study up on socialism..it's on its way
if people don't smarten up and look beyond the promises and pretty speeches.
I know where I live they do have to study and take a ..
test to become an american citizen, then they can legally work in America and pay taxes. I don't know what it is like where you live though.
new study states political
leanings are partially genetic. Those who startle easily are more likely to be republican. Those who are on a more even keel and do not startle at small noises or movements are more likely to be democrats. I would say this board supports those conclusions.
It seems to me that this study shows that conservatives (sm)
are MORE concerned about others than democrats. They see a picture of SOMEONE ELSE who is hurt or dead and they react more than the democrats. I used to think of myself as being fairly liberal, but if that means being associated with the type of people many of the democrats who post on here appear to be, then no thanks, I'll call myself conservative. Actually I always vote for the candidate I agree with most, regardless of party.
I love to study Revelations
I have read many, many commentaries on Revelations but I also enjoy researching and studying myself. There are some, some I know personally, who sincerely believe McCain is the anti-Christ. I don't believe that. I do believe the anti-Christ is alive in the world today. According to the Bible, even we believers will be deceived if it were possible. We are to watch and wait. Jesus tells us not to be afraid. I'm here to tell ya I expect the Rapture at any minute and I also believe that some preachers will still be in the pulpits preaching, politicians will be politicing and they'll all be trying to figure out what happened to all those people. I would urge everyone to accept the free insurance policy offered by Jesus Christ. If I understand anything in Revelations, it is that the end times are going to be so far worse than anything we can imagine, I sure wouldn't want to be left behind. Anyone can't help but see if reading the New Testament through and seeking understanding, that the very end times are even now beginning to be played out and this is only the beginning. This could not have possibly been prophysized 2000 years ago without divine intervention.......that makes total sense to me.
I used to didn't think so but I am beginning to think the U.S. will play some kind of major role in the end times, either that or we will all be brought to our knees. EVERY knee shall bow..............the thing is, will Jesus be our defense lawyer when we stand before God or will He be our prosecuting attorney? It'll be one or the other. My heart breaks for those who hear and refuse to believe.
I scored 54.55% - guess I need to study more.
:-)
Guess what - you can commission a STUDY to say whatever you want it to.
Oh, yes, the great evil VOUCHER. Let us all collectively shudder and quake.
I mean, what an outrage! Letting a PARENT determine what is in the best interest of THEIR CHILD. Oh my God! I mean, whoever heard of a country letting PARENTS make carefully-considered, informed DECISIONS? What's next! Letting women VOTE?! Heaven forbid! Good grief. Do you even understand how the voucher system works? Or do you just Google and let someone else do the thinking for you?
And your solution would be, what? Oh, I know.
Let's all just shove our kids in detention, surround them with barbed wire, and give them more free lunches.
That ought to provide a great crop of citizens, dontcha think?
I heard today that this study
was commissioned during the Bush administration. However, the timing of its release seems to be no coincidence.
what part of "Bible study" do you sm
not understand??? A Bible study is not a business meeting. This has nothing to do with taxes. I bet the people that attend the Bible study pay plenty of taxes themselves.
What next, a permit to have more than 15 people over at Thanksgiving and Christmas? Gotta pay taxes???? Please. Tupperware reps and Bible studies.........so far apart. Obviously you know nothing about a simpel Bible study.
I just read an independent study that says that only 20% of the public believe
or associate Democrats with christianity. It's actually down and has been consistently going down. Of course, I know a lot of Christian Democrats. None of them seem to post here, but I know many in my private life. They are far to the right, though, like Democrats use to be
I am plenty old to vote, study all the issues, as well
nm
I suggest YOU study up on Obama's plan...sm
and see if his plan remotely resembles national healthcare in other countries. All plans are not created equal.
UCLA released a study recently that said...
that the New Deal probably prolonged the depression by at least 7 years. Are you sure that socialism is what the market needs--it is my thought that this problem was well on its way before Bush came into office--caused by the interference in the market that was already in place.
here is a link for you JTBB, study it carefully
You think BUSH STARTED THIS WAR!!! all alone he did it all himself, that dirty b*stard! but wait, if he is so so so dumb like everyone protests he is... how did he pull one THAT BIG over everyone?? yes war sucks, but QUIT with that crap you always spew that it was all his fault
http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html
And: Study the comma rules and capitalize 'European'
You see, every day you learn something new, from me.
Hehehehe!
I forgot: Study some English grammar and spelling..nm
nm
I hope you can find that link. I'd love to read about that study.
Wouldn't poetic justice be served if it was discovered that the conservative brains lit up on the left side? 
that church is concerning to me
it SHOULD be concerning to everyone.
This is why I don't go to church
Is this what is going on in the churchs now? Fear tactics that we are all doomed to he**? Our society is morally based. Go walk around the Middle East for a day and you will appreciate just how moral we are. The public schools aren't there to raise our children and at least they can go to school. You don't have to put your child in the public school system, that is also the beauty of choice in our country. Try having your child dodge bombs instead or be taught to strap bombs to themselves and die in the name of God. I'll take the science class any day over that. You can teach your children to have faith and to read books based on opinions and science. We aren't stupid, we can make our own decisions. I love the fact that my son can argue all points of view. He was taught evolution, so what? He is smart enough to make his own decision, just like you! All opinions should be presented to grow and learn. If there was only one point of view, how would we know how to chose?
If he didn't go to church, then what would you say?
He can't win; if he goes he's wrong, if he doesn't what? The fact remains: Clinton lied, nobody died. Bush lied and 3 YEARS, billions of dollars later, 2300+ died...and yet we're being told how much **progress** is being made. Get over Clinton and wake up!
Yes, and The Persecuted Church
While persecution is not exclusionary to one set of beliefs at the present time Christians are the most persecuted people in the world especially in the Arab world and in communistic countries such as China and dictatorial countries like Iran and North Korea.
persecutedchurch.org
obama's church
OBAMA'S CHURCH
Subject: TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST
During this campaign for the Presidency, It's interesting that so much had been made of Mitt Romney's Mormom religion, while we heard/hear so little of Barack Obama's, outside of the denials of his being Muslim.
However, if you look more closely at Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's church, it sounds more like a racist cult than anything else, with a committment, not to America, but to Africa. Scary, when you consider this man could be the President of this United States.
Please go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned. Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K! Whites attend, I have also read, but are not members. Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing. This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa! It is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary. This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to:
www.tucc.org/about.htm
and then I saw/heard him speak yesterday and only see young white people always arround him....where are these black folks who are supporting him? The whites on TV clamoring around him far outweigh the number of blacks ALL the time that I see, I do not get that....it should be mixed in my mind wherever he speaks/goes to.
I am not a racist so please do not attack me.....
Catholic Church
Nancy Pelosi's big mouth is the last problem the Obama campaign wanted to contend with.
In its newly ratified platform, the Democratic Party reinvigorates its commitment to abortion.
This time Nancy Pelosi has truly gone too far -- which isn't good news for Joe Biden either.
Found at spectator.org. Other info at wnd.com
The Church Lady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wj4tJICcc
If you go to church, has your pastor done this?
WEST BEND, Wis. (AP) - Thirty-three pastors in 22 states used their sermons to make pointed recommendations about political candidates today.
The effort was orchestrated by the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund.
The conservative legal group plans to send copies of the pastors' sermons to the Internal Revenue Service with hope of setting off a legal fight and abolishing restrictions on church involvement in politics.
Critics call it unnecessary, divisive and unlikely to succeed.
The Reverend Eric Williams of Columbus has organized 55 religious leaders across the nation to file a complaint about the ADF's challenge.
The minister with the liberal United Church of Christ says churches should stand apart from the government.
I am surprised! You went to Church?....
.
you have never been to my sister's church
and she is not going to look for a different one either. You don't speak for God and neither do they.
These churches have their own agendas. Anybody can be brainwashed if they do not question authority.
But did he attend church
There is a difference you know. One can claim to be a member of a church and never set foot in it. Perhaps this is how he did it.
Because there's more than one church, one viewpoint?
Until we all think and behave exactly like them, some Christians won't feel they got their way?
And Reps want the church to tell me what to do.
nm
What is the reason for church
I don't go to church either. There is a church on every corner in my town and yet I don't know any of my neighbors? The only time a neighbor knocks on my door is when they are trying to convert me. What about all the kids who can only eat when they go to school? What about when someone gets their electric bill shut off in the winter? Can't the church help that person out? Or is it more important to fund the Sunday Pot Luck, Mens Camp or build a new wing - great use of tithing! What about the child who is being abused right under our nose? What is the church for and who do they care about? Members only? A church on every corner and yet my city is crumbling. Self-rightous do-gooders who don't do much and then complain if the government has to step in and help out. Judgemental people who can't see what is right next door. Stupid projects like sending red envelopes. I'm sure you will be blessed 10-fold for that one. I am Pro-choice and I am a foster parent who is trying to improve a real life and I don't believe in going to modern day churches filled with people who are more concerned about what the rest of the world is doing wrong. I can't be concerned with that because I do enough wrong on my own. So this weekend, while your sitting around feeling so self-rightous, go talk to a perfect stranger and ask how they are doing. You will be amazed at the difference you can make in a life when it isn't Sunday morning at church.
If a church - see message
doesn't want to hire you based on whether you were married in the church - well you probably don't want to work there in the first place.
I was married in the town hall by the Mayor of one of the cities in Denmark. Would they not consider that a marriage?
My belief is marriage is marriage. Call it what you want, it's still marriage. Two people love each other they should be able to be married no matter what gender, race, or anything. Calling it something else is discrimination - plane and simple.
Obama was a member of a church ...
where God Dam* America was preached. And it was in 1994 either. HE taught Saul Alinsky's methods. Saul's son said Obama learned his father's lessons well. I'll say. Already wanting to employ redistribution of wealth. That is a threat NOW.
The Church of the Self-Righteous Has Spoken
I don't care what anyone believes or practices - freedom of religion
It's the freaks who think THEIR religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion who scare me.
Even Jesus was a liberal.
Since I believe in SEPARATION of church & state,
Save it for Sundays in church, Sarah!
Religious people go to church
Religious people who go to work check their religion at the door. The constitution specifically instructs Congress to do the same. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This means keep religion out of federal legislative codes. Implied therein is the concept that the nation is not theocratic in nature.
The original poster is well understood in the expressed wish that this not be forgotten and remain unchanged. It is difficult to understand what is meant by the statement that religion will be in the White House under any leadership. Clearly, religious people, some to a greater degree than others, will inhabit the White House and the chambers of Congress. However, religion is constitutionally prohibited from entering the body of our laws and does not provide a foundation for our governmental institutions. The constitution has given indivuals immunity from federally mandates on religion. Wise men of great vision, our forefathers.
As the SNL church-lady would say, "Well now...
Not.
I went to a very moderate Baptist church as a ....sm
child and teenager, and no drinking alcohol or dancing was allowed whatsoever.
Separation of church and state.......... sm
is actually not described in the Constitution in the manner in which it is interpreted today. The First Amendment actually reads, in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." One of the reasons America came to be was to flee government-instituted religion such as in England. It was more to keep government out of religion than the other way around. Today, however, it has come to be interpreted, especially by those who would eschew religion in all manners, as religion should be kept out of the government.
The phrase "separation of church and state" is more accurately traced to a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Dansbury Baptists, a religious minority in Connecticut who were concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist Church there. They were concerned that the Congregationalists would "take over" the religion in much the same manner that the Church of England had taken over in England. He wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." In other words, Jefferson was assuring the Dansbury Baptists that their religion would be safe from any government-imposed religion and that they would be free to worship and express their religious beliefs. It says nothing about constricting their religion to their churches and their homes.
Maybe this is one of the things that Obama would relate to his belief that the Constitution is a "living document" as opposed to a static document. Who knows?
IRS to Church: Support Iraq War or Lose Your
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,592419,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Antiwar Sermon Brings IRS Warning
All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena risks losing its tax-exempt status because of a former rector's remarks in 2004.
By Patricia Ward Biederman and Jason Felch
Times Staff Writers
November 7, 2005
The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election.
Rector J. Edwin Bacon of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena told many congregants during morning services Sunday that a guest sermon by the church's former rector, the Rev. George F. Regas, on Oct. 31, 2004, had prompted a letter from the IRS.
In his sermon, Regas, who from the pulpit opposed both the Vietnam War and 1991's Gulf War, imagined Jesus participating in a political debate with then-candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry. Regas said that good people of profound faith could vote for either man, and did not tell parishioners whom to support.
But he criticized the war in Iraq, saying that Jesus would have told Bush, Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.
On June 9, the church received a letter from the IRS stating that a reasonable belief exists that you may not be tax-exempt as a church … The federal tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from intervening in political campaigns and elections.
The letter went on to say that our concerns are based on a Nov. 1, 2004, newspaper article in the Los Angeles Times and a sermon presented at the All Saints Church discussed in the article.
The IRS cited The Times story's description of the sermon as a searing indictment of the Bush administration's policies in Iraq and noted that the sermon described tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.
As Bacon spoke, 1984 Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a co-celebrant of Sunday's Requiem Eucharist, looked on.
We are so careful at our church never to endorse a candidate, Bacon said in a later interview.
One of the strongest sermons I've ever given was against President Clinton's fraying of the social safety net.
Telephone calls to IRS officials in Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles were not returned.
On a day when churches throughout California took stands on both sides of Proposition 73, which would bar abortions for minors unless parents are notified, some at All Saints feared the politically active church had been singled out.
I think obviously we were a bit shocked and dismayed, said Bob Long, senior warden for the church's oversight board. We felt somewhat targeted.
Bacon said the church had retained the services of a Washington law firm with expertise in tax-exempt organizations.
And he told the congregation: It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts.
After the initial inquiry, the church provided the IRS with a copy of all literature given out before the election and copies of its policies, Bacon said.
But the IRS recently informed the church that it was not satisfied by those materials, and would proceed with a formal examination. Soon after that, church officials decided to inform the congregation about the dispute.
In an October letter to the IRS, Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said, It seems ludicrous to suggest that a pastor cannot preach about the value of promoting peace simply because the nation happens to be at war during an election season.
Owens said that an IRS audit team had recently offered the church a settlement during a face-to-face meeting.
They said if there was a confession of wrongdoing, they would not proceed to the exam stage. They would be willing not to revoke tax-exempt status if the church admitted intervening in an election.
The church declined the offer.
Long said Bacon is fond of saying it's a sin not to vote, but has never told anyone how to vote. We don't do that. We preach to people how to vote their values, the biblical principles.
Regas, who was rector of All Saints from 1967 to 1995, said in an interview that he was surprised by the IRS action and then I became suspicious, suspicious that they were going after a progressive church person.
Regas helped the current church leadership collect information for the IRS on his sermon and the church's policies on involvement in political campaigns.
Some congregants were upset that a sermon citing Jesus Christ's championing of peace and the poor was the occasion for an IRS probe.
I'm appalled, said 70-year-old Anne Thompson of Altadena, a professional singer who also makes vestments for the church.
In a government that leans so heavily on religious values, that they would pull a stunt like this, it makes me heartsick.
Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank, questioned whether the 3,500-member church would be under scrutiny if it were not known for its activism and its liberal stands on social issues.
The question is, is it politically motivated? he said. That's the underlying feeling of everyone here. I don't have enough information to make a decision, but there's a suspicion.
Bacon revealed the IRS investigation at both morning services. Until his announcement, the mood of the congregation had been solemn because the services remembered, by name, those associated with the church who had died since last All Saints Day.
Regas' 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush's positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons.
In the sermon, Regas said, President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.'
Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.
If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, Why is so little mentioned about the poor?''
In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I'm not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child.
When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.
Owens, the tax attorney, said he was surprised that the IRS is pursuing the case despite explicit statements by Regas that he was not trying to influence the congregation's vote.
I doubt it's politically motivated, Owens said. I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are.
According to Owens, six years ago the IRS used to send about 20 such letters to churches a year. That number has increased sharply because of the agency's recent delegation of audit authority to agents on the front lines, he said.
He knew of two other churches, both critical of government policies, that had received similar letters, Owens said.
It's unclear how often the IRS raises questions about the tax-exempt status of churches.
While such action is rare, the IRS has at least once revoked the charitable designation of a church.
Shortly before the 1992 presidential election, a church in Binghamton, N.Y., ran advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy, and the tax agency ruled that the congregation could not retain its tax-exempt status because it had intervened in an election.
Bacon said he thought the IRS would eventually drop its case against All Saints.
It is a social action church, but not a politically partisan church, he said.
Obama was a member of a church whose pastor said...
"God damm* America." Obama went to that church for 20 years.
Palin's husband was a member of the Alaskan Independence party several years ago, and this quote came from the head of the party.
I see absolutely NO difference. If you are going to condemn one, condemn both.
Keep it in church - it doesn't belong in government.
their unwavering belief, Christians are NOT the center-of-the-Universe.
small message, church lady...
The most significant thing to me in the entire video is "Vote your conscience." That speaks volumes.
|
