Where was the concern of anyone when Saddam was killing the Iraqi people?
Posted By: worldfan on 2007-04-26
In Reply to: I really did not want to - ravenswing
I must say, this is one of the most egregious of all arguments that is made in this country, or any country. Saddam tortured, killed, maimed and raped his own people for decades and not a word was said. Now with a chance for a free Iraq, this concern surfaces. Where was it all these years?
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Afghanistan - war on Al Quaeda and Taliban; Iraqi FREEDOM - kill Saddam Hussein
Two different wars based on entirely different premises.........
Is that how your people justify killing people?
Your president only cares about killing people in Iraq.
That's first and foremost in his mind, and Americans can go to hell, as far as he's concerned.
He thinks the war is more important than anything, including funding of projects to prevent a hurricane from destroying vulnerables, including funding border patrols, including forcing Americans to go broke just because they want to stay warm in the winter.
I overheard a conversation last night in a store. A woman was complaining of gas prices and said she didn't know if she'd be able to afford to heat her home this winter. Another woman told her about Jessie Jackson and his visit to Chavez and Chavez' offer to help low-income Americans with heating fuel.
This woman (who reminded me very much of some of you who post here, always in attack mode) said she and her children would FREEZE before she'd take any welfare from a communist. She then went on a tirade about the kind of people who receive welfare (not fit to print on a public forum like this). I was shocked, and the first three things that popped in my mind were Jim Jones, David Koresh and PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
Is there any length you people WON'T go to to defend this idiot president who doesn't care enough about YOU to make gasoline and heating oil affordable?
Clinton wasn't killing innocent people. NM
:
Eventually, Saddam would have killed enough of his own people sm
maybe we wouldn't have to worry about it, right? I mean, really, he was only killig his own people, so what is the problem. He was persecuting his OWN people. What a guy.
Taking revenge, killing other people, does this bring your friend back to life?..nm
There has to be another way!
Rights under Saddam? Any country where people are tortured, mutilated, and killed is no better
x
Oh, I feel you. I don't know which is better for the Iraqi's, b/c what is usually reported is sm
the military casualties, not the civilian casualties in Iraq.
Fox News did report this week about a military man whose family was murdered, wife and children while he was out working. That's awful, that's terror. When I hear stories like that I do think of the terror the people are experiencing due to this war, but they did have it bad under Sadaam. They're in a catch 22.
Iraqi death toll....sm
See link for full article below.
*According to the graph, Iraqi civilians and security forces were killed and wounded by insurgents at a rate of about 26 a day early in 2004, and at a rate of about 40 a day later that year. The rate increased in 2005 to about 51 a day, and by the end of August had jumped to about 63 a day.
Extrapolating the daily averages over the months from Jan. 1, 2004, to Sept. 16 of this year results in a total of 25,902 Iraqi civilians and security forces killed and wounded by insurgents.*
Detained Iraqi children
Okay, this is about as disturbing as it gets. I came across this thread on the Democratic Underground website:
Source: AFP
Agence France-Presse
BAGHDAD -- US troops are holding nearly 950 children and teenagers in a military prison at a Baghdad base, some as young as 10, a top commander said Monday.
Brigadier General Michael Nevin of US military police said many of these youngsters, mainly 15, 16 or 17 years of age are illiterate and have been detained for planting bombs and even for "picking up a gun and firefighting."
...
"These juveniles have been involved in something that is perceived as a security threat to Iraq or coalition forces," Nevin told Agence France-Presse during a tour of Camp Cropper.
...
"In January we had around 100 juveniles. Now we have around 950," Nevin said.
...
One of the commanders at Camp Cropper, Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm McMullen, said the juveniles were now part of a wide-ranging educational program launched by the military.
"Many of them come from broken homes with no education," he said.
So, curious as to what type of educational program launched by the military, as I thought it funny this little tibit of information was left out, I came across this:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2007/11/10/9066.shtml
I think we need to dig further.
Obama and Iraqi oil for food...
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/obamas_iraqi_oil_for_food_conn.html
The Iraqi war has further destabilized the middle east. It has....sm
But obviously you don't think so so tell us how it has helepd to stabilize the region?
A blog by an Iraqi about his homeland and Democracy. sm
I read this every day until he stopped posting. It's very informative and not something seen in the MSM. There are other links there that are still active.
This is my first time hearing protestors against the Iraqi war...sm
getting soldiers killed??
This is not Vietnam. We are not trying to stop communism from spreading (not that I would have agreed with that then). This is supposedly to stop WMD, then to spread democracy to the Iraqi people, and now because there was a connection to al Queda.
The loss of live was tremendous in Vietnam compared to the Iraqi war. If we had lost the number of troops we did in Vietnam, I would be in Washington sitting on the lawn myself.
Not sure this answered your question, you have to explain your question further??
Iraqi terrorist training camps?
Links between Saddam's regime and al-Qaeda, as claimed by the Bush Administration (which formed a crucial part of the WMD justification for the Iraq invasion), were non-existent or exaggerated, according to the report of both the United States Government's 9/11 Commission and the Pentagon. There was never any real proof of training camps in Iraq. As far as terrorists having been in Iraq at one time or another....it's a middle eastern country.....they were way down toward the bottom of the list of terrorist hang-outs.
Iraqi Soldiers Speak Out in Favor of Murtha
On January 5, 2006, Congressman Murtha held a town hall meeting with Cong. Jim Moran (D-VA 08).
The soldier who asked the first question served in Afghanistan and said that morale among troops is high and that he would gladly serve in Iraq today. His comment was the only one replayed by Fox News the next day.
But the majority of soldiers in attendance spoke out against the current policy. Fox News did not broadcast their remarks.
Here are some excerpts.
John Brumes, Infantry Sgt. US Army:
Everything that the Bush Adminstration told us about that mission in Iraq is absolutely incorrect. Furthermore, I'd like to say ... I came home to no job, no health insurance. Until we take care of this war, we can't take care of the problems that matter like health care.
I've witnessed both ends... Congressman Murtha, I implore you to keep doing what you're doing.
John Powers, Capt. 1st Armored Division, served 12 months in Iraq:
The thing that hits me the most is the accountability. ... Where is the accountability for those men [who took us to war], as well as where is the accountability for Paul Bremmer, who misplaced millions of dollars and claims to keep accountability in the war zone?... I know that if we lost $500 we would be court marshaled. So where is the accountability for this leadership?
Garin Reppenhagen, served as a sniper in Iraq for a year in the First Infantry Division:
My question is also about accountability. The soldiers that you see, Congressman Murtha, at the hospitals... those are my friends. After coming back, being a veteran, my question is why? Why did we go to this war, why the hell did it happen, why are we in this condition. A lot of soldiers are debating whether this war was fraudulent to begin with. And there doesn't seem to be a clear answer. A lot of Americans now are debating the fact over whether or not the war was fraudulent in the first place. How come there hasn't been an investigation on the fraudulent lead up to the war by this Administration?
C-SPAN has the full broadcast here.
Iraqi Colleagues Killed U.S. Soldiers, Military Says
And 19 Republican senators and a conservative poster crashing this this board think that monsters like this should receive amnesty for killing our soldiers. Unbelievable.
Iraqi colleagues killed U.S. soldiers, military says
SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found.
The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.
But the Army's Criminal Investigation Command found that one or more of the Iraqis attached to the American soldiers on patrol fired at them, a military official said Tuesday. (Watch a mother's quest for truth -- 1:26)
A Pentagon spokesman knew of no other similar incident, calling it extremely rare.
The Army has conducted an extensive investigation into the deaths but declined to provide details out of respect for relatives of the soldiers, spokesman Paul Boyce said Tuesday evening.
It was unclear whether the investigators had established a motive or arrested any suspects.
The families of McCaffrey and Tyson were to be briefed on the report's conclusions Tuesday and Wednesday by Brig. Gen. Oscar Hilman, the soldiers' commander at the time, and three other officers.
When they come I have my list of questions ready, and I want these answers and I don't want lies, McCaffrey's mother, Nadia McCaffrey, said.
Soldiers who witnessed the attack have told her that two Iraqi patrolmen opened fire on her son's unit. The witnesses also said a third gunman simultaneously drove up to the American unit in a van, climbed onto the vehicle and fired at the Americans, she said.
Nothing is clear. Nothing is clear, she said. Her son was shot eight times by bullets of various calibers, some of which penetrated his body armor, she said. She believes he bled to death.
Nadia McCaffrey has become a vocal critic of the war in Iraq, and said her son had reservations about it, too, though he served well and was promoted posthumously to sergeant.
I really want this story to come out; I want people to know what happened to my son, she said. There is no doubt to me that this (ambushes by attached Iraqi units) is still happening to soldiers today, but our chain of command is awfully reckless; they don't seem to give a damn about what's happening to soldiers.
Iraqi forces who had trained with the Americans had fired at them twice before the incident that killed Patrick McCaffrey, and he had reported it to his superiors, she said.
Boyce said the U.S. military remained confident in its operations with Iraqis.
We continue to have confidence in our operations with Iraqi soldiers and have witnessed the evolution of a stronger fighting army for the Iraqi people, he said.
Patrick McCaffrey joined the National Guard the day after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, his mother said.
Tyson's family could not be located, and a message left with his former unit was not immediately returned.
McCaffrey, 34, and Tyson, 33, were members of the California National Guard. Both were assigned to the Army National Guard's 579th Engineer Battalion, based in Petaluma.
Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, pressed the Pentagon for answers about the case when Nadia McCaffrey was unsatisfied by explanations from the military.
Mrs. McCaffrey is set to receive a briefing from Pentagon officials (Wednesday) afternoon in California, during which we hope they will provide her with a full report of the facts surrounding Sgt. McCaffrey's death, said Natalie Ravitz, a Boxer spokeswoman.
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. |
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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/21/soldiers.ambushed.ap/index.html |
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Raped Iraqi woman feared US troops...sm
I don't usually post reports of the bad side of US soldiers in Iraq because I believe the most of them are doing their jobs with integrity, so even after reading this it is still hard to believe. Thanks to the brave soldiers who spoke out against their comrades. This story reminds me of some of the bad stories I've heard of Vietnam.
Please somebody say it aint so...
------------------------------------------
Raped Iraqi woman feared US troops: report
Mon Jul 3, 2006 07:06 AM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A woman apparently at the center of a rape-murder probe by the U.S. military in Iraq was only 15 and voiced fears about soldiers' advances before she and her family were killed in March, the Washington Post said on Monday.
Quoting the mayor of Mahmudiya, near Baghdad, an unnamed hospital official and neighbors of the alleged victims, the newspaper named the woman, her parents and 7-year-old sister as having been killed in their home in the town on March 11.
The paper did not affirm the woman, Abeer Qasim Hamza, was killed by Americans, but local people quoted appeared to believe the dead family was the one involved in the U.S. investigation.
A U.S. military official in Baghdad told Reuters details of the incident they described were at odds with U.S. documents in the 10-day-old investigation of at least three soldiers. U.S. officials had the rape victim's age as 20, he said. However, he added, he was not aware of any other such cases in the area.
The U.S. military has given few details publicly. Officials say at least three soldiers are under investigation over the alleged rape of a woman and the killing of three relatives, including a child, in their home at Mahmudiya on March 12.
Two are suspected of rape and one of these, since discharged from the army, is also suspected of murder, officials said.
The Washington Post quoted Omar Janabi, who said he was a neighbor, saying Abeer Qasim's mother had told him on March 10 that the young woman had complained repeatedly about advances made toward her by U.S. soldiers at a nearby checkpoint.
Janabi told the newspaper he was one of the first people to arrive at the family house after the attack. He said he found Abeer sprawled dead in a corner, her hair and a pillow next to her consumed by fire, and her dress pushed up to her neck.
DEATH CERTIFICATES
The paper said death certificates from Mahmudiya hospital identified the victims as Abeer Qasim Hamza, 15, shot in the head and burned; her mother Fakhriyah Taha Muhsin, 34, killed by gunshots to her head; her father Qasim Hamza Raheem, 45, whose head was smashed by bullets; and Hadeel Qasim Hamza, 7.
The inquiry was launched after two soldiers from the 502nd Infantry Regiment came forward last month to make allegations about comrades. The killings had previously been recorded by the military as the work of guerrillas, U.S. officers say.
Local residents and officials in the area, one of the most dangerous and violent in Iraq, have offered Reuters reporters conflicting accounts of incidents involving U.S. troops.
Two years after the scandal over U.S. prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib jail and coming after a string of murder charges against U.S. troops and accusations over the killing of 24 people in the western city of Haditha, the rape allegation is potentially incendiary in Iraq's conservative Muslim society.
Iraq's main organization of Sunni Muslim clerics, long hostile to the U.S. occupation, said on Sunday the Mahmudiya case revealed the real, ugly face of America.
In recent months, officials say, commanders have cracked down on rogue soldiers in a bid to gain the trust of ordinary Iraqis and of their new government after three years of growing resentment that U.S. officers say risks fuelling the insurgency.
Iraqi PM says Reckles soldiers should stay home.
So much for all that *winning their hearts and minds* talk. 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060706/wl_nm/iraq_maliki_dc_2
Reckless soldiers should stay home: Iraqi PM
By Ibon Villelabeitia
Thu Jul 6, 1:41 PM ET
Iraq's prime minister urged the U.S. military on Thursday to keep reckless troops from serving in Iraq in order to prevent abuses like the alleged rape and murder of a teenager and her family by U.S. soldiers in March.
Expanding on calls for an independent inquiry and a review of foreign troops' immunity from Iraqi law, Nuri al-Maliki said commanders should do a better job in preparing their soldiers.
There needs to be a plan to educate and train soldiers, and those who are brought to serve in Iraq shouldn't bear prejudices nor be reckless toward people's honor, Maliki said.
The U.S. military is investigating a group of its soldiers over the rape and killing of a family of four in Mahmudiya, south of the capital, in a case that has strained relations between Washington and Baghdad.
Former private Steven Green, 21, has been charged with rape and murder in a U.S. federal court. He had been discharged from the army because of a personality disorder before the case came to light.
At least three other soldiers are being investigated in the case.
The Mahmudiya incident and other incidents before that ... produce sadness, pain and condemnation from Iraqis, Maliki said.
IMMUNITY
Maliki, facing pressure from Shi'ites and Sunnis to hold Americans accountable, has slammed a U.S. occupation authority decree that grants immunity from Iraqi law for the 140,000 or so foreign troops in Iraq, saying it emboldens soldiers.
I think this matter has become necessary to review and solve, either by reviewing the issue of immunity or reviewing the nature of the investigating committees, he told reporters in Baghdad, a day after he first called for a review of the law.
The rape and murder case is the fifth in a high-profile series of U.S. inquiries into killings of Iraqi civilians in recent months and has outraged Iraqis.
American commanders, keen to repair the military's tarnished image after three years of complaints from Iraqis that U.S. abuses go unpunished, pressed murder charges against 12 military personnel last month. Marines are under investigation for the killing of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha.
Iraqis have complained of Americans' lack of cultural sensitivity -- including searching women's rooms during raids or not taking their boots off when entering. Commanders say they are improving such procedures.
Though heavily dependent on America's military muscle, Maliki faces delicate negotiations with its main ally Washington over how to regulate the presence of the U.S.-led forces in Iraq, now under a U.N. mandate that expires in December.
Copyright © 2006 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
Copyright © 2006 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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My overall concern is that it is the US
that are detaining these children, and there doesn't seem to be much transparency about what is really going on. I would like full disclosure. It seems that quite a few agencies that have inquired about it have been shunned, at least in the beginning. And in the beginning, a lot of these children were being detained in adult jails/camps and interrogated as adults. That I believe is a war crime and someone should be held accountable.
I would feel much more comfortable and positive about the overall situation if it were being handled soley by the Iraqi people. If not, it will look like coercion. I'm not saying we shouldn't help, but that perhaps it should be more of a long-arm approach (for the lack of a better way to say it). The average Iraqi citizen does not teach their children to kill. It is the extreme Islamists who are preying upon them. It is a very delicate situation that could very well backfire regardless that our intentions are good ones.
I do appreciate your concern about
In a creepy way, I get this slimey feeling that the ACORN controversy is a set-up for exactly that. To make matters worse, I think Ohio will not be alone this year and that every state will face its challenges in this regard. Thing is, it's a little late in the game to be "fixing" that problem now. The progressives have been talking about this problem ever since the last election, but until now, those concerns have been falling on deaf ears.
No concern until one of their own
of course it does not concern them unless one of their own family are blown up, shot, kidnapped or whatever happens the next time. And don't think there won't be a next time since our country is showing such weakness now. When it happens to one of their own they will be screaming to high heaven and forget that they backed this closing.
Not pro-war, oh yeah, just pro-killing.
...and they look like such nice boys.....
![gunnuts1.jpg](http://www.rocknrev.com/pw/gunnuts1.jpg")
They will be killing 2 birds
with one stone here. Obviously those who were too poor to get out of the city are going to be too poor to get back in, never mind rebuilding. They have been spread out over the country which does break down the democratic voting base, turning LA into a Republican state. Also the vulture developers can build condo upon condo starting at about the half million mark and the sky's the limit. It's was a perfect storm, got rid of the poor, the blacks, i.e, the strongly Democratic base and it allows the rich to come on down, build their gated communities, vote Republican and keep the riff raff out.
Killing this country?
In less than 4 months? He hasn't even had a chance to initiate anything yet to kill it. If you feel the country is dying, cast that upon the previous administration, who handed Obama a 'flat lined' country and now you gripe about Obama because he hasn't fixed 8 years of malignant policies in 4 months?
Which brings us the reason Dubya's name keeps coming up. The anti-Prez-O folks keep pointing to Obama and saying he's killing the country. Dubya's name comes up because he's the one who pulled the trigger; BO is just the poor schmuck working the ER when the patient got rolled in.
My big concern is what is attached to that
xx
So, I have a question/concern.
Why are the presidential candidates not talking more about pulling us away from oil? or more strategies to get us off oil? I may be wrong, so please correct me, but I have not heard anything specific about this issue. John Kerry is the only one I have heard, but not sure how effectual he is.
Last night on Hardball, the money man said to expect that a gallon of gas to go as high as $20 a gallon in the next 10 to 20 years. Insane. What is that going to do to the world economy? I see a global recession coming, and at the rate the US is dragging their feet, we are going to be the hit very, very hard because we still rely too much on oil for just about everything, from cars to home heating to food.
What are we to do?
Cute.....have a job, thank you so much for your concern...
check the conservative board, liberals post there too. Is it your day to watch me? LOL.
I don't know if concern is the word,
I would like any prospective President to have some first hand knowledge of the rest of the world AND have some kind of relationship with other world leaders. I think both of those are hard to achieve if you cocoon yourself in your own country.
Another huge concern........
Where is all the money coming from being donated to Obama's campaign. They are using fake names. Why? Now, most common sense folks will know why if we don't want to deceive ourselves. No doubt Muslim organizations, corrupt groups, terrorists related groups.....you name it. See how well that never gets reported on most of your news channels. FOX has tried and is bringing it up again but try to get others, with the exception of Lou Dobbs, who will call a spade a spade....and please don't get racial with me.....you know what I mean.
Still a big concern for those not so easily
Palin's clothes, her trips, family trips. Who cares!!
If you don't want to hear about it, too bad! I can see where you wouldn't; doesn't look good for him.
billions for killing Iraqis okay
not one red cent for the poor!
How did we go from killing wolves in an inhumane way
?
You agree with killing infants??
I mean most humans don't...
Like I said, not a POLITICAL ISSUE
A HUMANITY ISSUE!
I am so tired of you guys that are so star struck with Obama! It's getting insane! No, I don't like Mccain. But my God, killing infants?? Where does it stop????
Please, please just answer me yes or no....without regards to candidates, politics, etc...
Do you believe it is right for a newborn to be killed just because the abortion was botched? Not a FETUS, not an EMBRYO, a living, breathing, baby that has come out of the mother and the cord has been cut. Do you think that is okay?
ROFL!! You're killing me here.
.
yes, about killing humans that are ALIVE
Not unborn ones...
The unions are killing companies, though. That is
nm
I am ok with shooting him but not with torturing and then killing him ..nm
nm
I don't wear sneakers, but thanks for the concern. nm
Thank you so much for your concern about my energy level.
Where's the concern for the dying US children?
I don't know whether you are a Republican or Democrat (or neither), but I have found that many Republicans are against this bill. The ironic thing to me is that many Republicans are pro-life. Many care so much about saviing the babies in the womb, but where is the concern for little children who are suffering? I think it's hypocritical for one to say that they care so much about bringing this life into the world and giving it a chance to live, and yet if that same child gets leukemia it's on it's own because God forbid our taxes might get raised or something.
Sometimes you just have to DO THE RIGHT THING. I believe the right thing is health insurance for all American children. What would Jesus do? 
Well, it makes him decidedly more of a concern...
nm
My biggest concern is how many illegals are
+
She's not an Obama supporter so no concern
@
Yeah, we can see that by your post over your concern
Grow up already.
It's not hate, is deep concern
I don't hate Obama. I think he's a fine person. Great with giving speeches and beautiful family. Personally I will enjoy hearing his voice give a speech over McCains voice and was really getting sick of hearing "my friends" in every other sentance of a speech McCain gave. So it's not that I or others hate Obama. Unlike the hate we have seen from the other side.
What it is is very deep concerns that everything we have worked for and everything we aspire for and live for and save for and teach our kids is going to change for the worse. I do not think Obama is qualified to be president. I don't and that is my opinion. Evidently other people do feel otherwise and therefore he became president (which I still have doubts that a president is really elected by the people - I think he was already picked a long time ago). But my gut feeling is the same exact feeling I had for Clinton. He promised us so much while he was campaigning and once he got in he screwed the country royally. This is the same feeling.
I hope I am wrong and honestly if I am wrong and if he does do good things I WILL be on this board and admit that I am wrong. But at the same time when I hear and read that he is doing somthing wrong, not fullfilling (sp?) his campaign promises I will also be on this board posting too.
I will admit that I am not always right, but when I feel strongly and when I feel I am right I speak my mind.
My main concern is his redistribution of weath. I'll tell you if my taxes go up so that people like that girl (forget her name) who said it was a historic moment and never in her whole life did she ever think she would not have to work to pay her mortgate and would not have to work to buy gas - if my taxes go up so that way she can pay her rent and gas and bills because I had to put in an extra 10 hours of work to pay the extra taxes for HER!!!!! You can bet your you know what I'm going to be on this board screaming and shouting.
But DH and I were talking and we said maybe it is someone like Obama who will finally be able to do something right and fight for Americans. One never knows. So if he does I will come on and admit I was wrong.
why don't you show as much concern for the spectacle
right and left, as we speak. You just can't stand the fact that Obama is going to be a fine leader, ran a brilliant campaign, is loved by people all over the world while pub party is basically turning into a laughing stock.
I predict he will be a one-termer....thanks for your concern, tho
NO! Your post above: **My concern lies more with
WHAT LYING?
Why do you defend killing of innocent civilians?
I have never said I defend Hezbollah. I don't defend Hezbollah. They're terrorists, and they're horrible.
But blindly defending Israel, regardless of what they do, doesn't work for me either. What is most disquieting to me is that you defend Israel's placement of landmines to kill innocent civilians, designed to go off at a later date when people least expect it? Why don't you consider that terrorism, as well?
There's a big difference between killing a fully developed,
is at that point only a bunch of tissue that will EVENTUALLY be a human being, but is not, and is a long way out from being one. The OP, by the way, was NOT talking about abortion rights, or the pro-life religious movement, etc. Why you people have to infuse this argument into everything is beyond me. The OP was talking about WOLVES. And the fact that SP was not against what appears to amount to aerial target-practice. Please take your pro-life sentiments to another thread (and preferably, another forum.)
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