What makes you think Israel will succeed in

• Israel rams humanitarian aid boat destined for Gaza - sm
  • No instead they hide behind woman and children - jm
    • This is a lie. They live in Gaza. They don't hide there. - sm
      • The terrorist's best friend. - FeFiFo
        • Careful, now. Your ignorance and flaming bigotry is showing. - sm
          • I answered your post point-by-point and - sm
          • No, yours is - nm
  • Because they're in a WAR! - FeFiFo
    • Israel's just as bad as the rest of the scummy middle - east. Why we support them is beyond me. -nm
      • You mean what's all that scum doing on top of all OUR oil- - ?
    • You almost sound proud of your ignorance. - sm
      • Are you dyslexic or just uninformed? - FeFiFo
        • It is new kid on the block as a national entity. 60 years young. - sm
          • Feel better after your self-righteous rant? - FeFiFo
            • Occupation is the ultimate terrorist act. - sm
              • Your justrification of Hama missle strikes is disgusting. - FeFiFo
                • There is nothing pathetic about - sm
      • Your the one showing how little you understand about the situation - jm
        • Do you always become this dictatorial when facee with - 2 sides of a story? nm
        • You should really invest some time in reading...(sm) - Just the big bad
          • The ignorance on this board astounds me. - FeFiFo
            • Ageed. Your post is a prime example. - nm
              • You just proved my point. - FeFiFo
                • So, since there is no message here, - sm
                  • Presenting 2 sides to a story is not slander. - sm
                  • Keep slandering me - I'll keep reporting you. - FeFiFo
                • Let me guess....(sm) - Just the big bad
                  • Still in junior high? - FeFiFoFum
                    • I recall junior high being full of tattle-tales. - sm
            • You don't have to go to Israel to know right from wrong. - sm
              • Right from wrong - your list. - FeFiFo
                • You are delusional AND ill-informed. What a pity. - sm
                  • I didn't say they were occupiers. - FeFiFo
                    • If you are not able to follow my thread, - sm
                      • I don't believe she is capable of - anything else.
                        • Thanks. I appreciate this comment. - sm
                          • Ground invasion may be necessary. - It is called war. nm
                            • When Hitler did it they called it genocide...(sm) - Just the big bad
            • My hand's up. I've lived in Palestine. - sm
              • Very proud indeed! - FeFiFo
                • So, you don't have the guts to comment on - sm
                  • Your version of the truth is skewed. - FeFiFo
                    • You answered your own question. - sm
                • The school yard bully/"I was here first" approach - sm
                  • Maybe your beloved Hamas SHOULD put God in it. - FeFiFo
                    • What makes you think Israel will succeed in - sm
            • Speaking of ignorance....(sm) - Just the big bad
              • All you do is speak of ignorance, BigBad - FeFiFo
                • In other words you don't have any response to the truth..(sm) - Just the big bad
                  • The truth is that... - FeFiFo
                    • Bitter self-serving rhetoric? - Just the big bad
                      • Why do you hate the US so much, BigBland? - FeFiFo
                        • Dragging out the limp America love it or leave it line? - sm
              • Bravo! - nm
    • Could not have said it better - nm - sammypot
    • My feelings exactly...... - sm
    • The doors open--don't let it hit you - on the way out of my country.
      • You mean OUR country, don't you? - I'm not going anywhere.

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Why does none of this surprise me?

'US, Israel planned ME war' 13/08/2006 11:06  - (SA)

New York - The US government was closely involved in the planning of Israel's military operations against Islamic militant group Hezbollah even before the July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, The New Yorker magazine reported in its latest issue. The kidnapping triggered a month-long Israeli operation in South Lebanon that is expected to come to an end on Monday. But Pulitzer Prize-winning US journalist Seymour Hersh writes that President George W Bush and vice president Dick Cheney were convinced that a successful Israeli bombing campaign against Hezbollah could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential US pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations. Citing an unnamed Middle East expert with knowledge of the current thinking of the Israeli and US governments, Israel had devised a plan for attacking Hezbollah - and shared it with Bush administration officials - well before the July 12 kidnappings. The expert added that the White House had several reasons for supporting a bombing campaign, the report said. If there was to be a military option against Iran, it had to get rid of the weapons Hezbollah could use in a potential retaliation against Israel, Hersh writes. Citing a US government consultant with close ties to Israel, Hersh also reports that earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, several Israeli officials visited Washington to get a green light for a bombing operation following a Hezbollah provocation, and to find out how much the United States would bear. The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits, the magazine quotes the consultant as saying. Why oppose it? We'll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran. US government officials have denied the charges. Nonetheless, Hersh writes, a former senior intelligence official says some officers serving with the Joint Chiefs of Staff remain deeply concerned that the administration will have a far more positive assessment of the air campaign than they should. There is no way that (defence secretary Donald) Rumsfeld and Cheney will draw the right conclusion about this, the report quotes the former official as saying. When the smoke clears, they'll say it was a success, and they'll draw reinforcement for their plan to attack Iran.

Move the state of Israel to Virginia, Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson can fight over the honor, and see how much y'all love Israel then.

I know that it happens all the time.  I am sorry that it does.

Why the Israeli attack helps the US by taking on Hamas now and why this time Israel may succeed in Gaza. A well-written perspective on Gaza, Israel, Hamas. This adds more to consider as we all discuss this war.

Why Israel Fights
By WILLIAM KRISTOL
Published: January 4, 2009

The Israeli assault on Hamas in Gaza is going to be a replay, we’re told, of the attempt to subdue Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in the summer of 2006. And the outcome, it’s asserted, will be the same: lots of death and destruction, no strategic victory for Israel and a setback for all who seek peace and progress in the Middle East.

Obviously, war is an unpredictable business, so I say this with some trepidation: I think the conventional wisdom will be proved wrong. Israel could well succeed in Gaza.

For one thing, southern Lebanon is a substantial and hilly area, bordered by northern Lebanon and Syria, through which Hezbollah could be re-supplied, both by Syria itself and by Iran. Gaza is a flat, narrow strip, bordered by Israel, as well as by the sea and by Egypt, no friend to Hamas. By cutting off the northern part of Gaza from the southern, Israel has basically surrounded northern Gaza, creating a military situation very different from that in Lebanon in 2006.

What’s more, the Israeli leadership seems aware of the mistakes — political, strategic and military — it made in Lebanon. That doesn’t mean it won’t make them all over again. The same prime minister, Ehud Olmert, is in charge, after all. But, today’s defense minister, Ehud Barak, is very different from his predecessor, the weak and unqualified Amir Peretz. So far as one can tell, the Gaza operation seems to have been well-planned and is being methodically executed, in sharp contrast to the Lebanon incursion. Barak has also warned that the operation could be long and difficult, lowering expectations by contrast with the Israeli rhetoric of July 2006.

In addition, in Lebanon, Israel proclaimed war goals that it couldn’t achieve — such as retrieving its two kidnapped soldiers and disarming Hezbollah. Now the Israeli government says that it seeks to weaken Hamas, lessen its ability to fire rockets from Gaza and secure new arrangements along the Egyptian-Gaza border to prevent Hamas from re-arming. These may well be achievable goals.

And, of course, not all military efforts against terror fail. Recall Israel’s incursion into the West Bank in the spring of 2002, when, under the leadership of Ariel Sharon, Israel succeeded in ripping up established terror networks and began the defeat of the second intifada. Israel also was able to avoid a long-term re-occupation, while retaining the ability to go back in on anti-terror missions. What’s more, the 2002 bloodshed didn’t seem to do lasting damage to hopes for progress or moderation on the West Bank. After all, it’s Gaza, from which Israel withdrew in 2005, not the West Bank, that became a Hamas stronghold.

An Israeli success in Gaza would be a victory in the war on terror — and in the broader struggle for the future of the Middle East. Hamas is only one manifestation of the rise, over the past few decades, of a terror-friendly and almost death-cult-like form of Islamic extremism. The combination of such terror movements with a terror-sponsoring and nuclear-weapons-seeking Iranian state (aided by its sidekick Syria) has produced a new kind of threat to Israel.

But not just to Israel. To everyone in the Middle East — very much including Muslims — who aren’t interested in living under the sway of extremist regimes. And to any nation, like the United States, that is a target of Islamic terror. So there are sound reasons why the United States — whether led by George W. Bush or Barack Obama — will stand with Israel as it fights.

But Israel — assuming it succeeds — is doing the United States a favor by taking on Hamas now.

The huge challenge for the Obama administration is going to be Iran. If Israel had yielded to Hamas and refrained from using force to stop terror attacks, it would have been a victory for Iran. If Israel were now to withdraw under pressure without accomplishing the objectives of severely weakening Hamas and preventing the reconstitution of a terror-exporting state in Gaza, it would be a triumph for Iran. In either case, the Iranian regime would be emboldened, and less susceptible to the pressure from the Obama administration to stop its nuclear program.

But a defeat of Hamas in Gaza — following on the heels of our success in Iraq — would be a real setback for Iran. It would make it easier to assemble regional and international coalitions to pressure Iran. It might positively affect the Iranian elections in June. It might make the Iranian regime more amenable to dealing.

With respect to Iran, Obama may well face — as the Israeli government did with Hamas — a moment when the use of force seems to be the only responsible option. But Israel’s willingness to fight makes it more possible that the United States may not have to. 

the U.N. overstepped its bounds?  And what about the United Kingdom that controlled the area in the early 1900s? 

Like it or not nations are formed through civil war.  There are winners and there are losers.  It's really very simple.  The process has not changed for centuries and it will never change.  The strong prevail.  The righteous prevail. The minute we take a liberal viewpoint, that's the exact minute we become weak. 

Yep, they'll be back when all the Lebanese are dead, because all us conservatives are evil like that.    

I have studied U.S./Israel relations extensively.  I fully understand that the protestors do not share my point of view as well as you.  From reading your copious posts I am very clear on where you stand.  I will not be so presumptious as to think I know your biography, but you obviously believe everything wrong in the world has U.S. origins.  I believe you are wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I will not try to change your mind.  Since liberals in general are so worried about how the rest of the world thinks about us I will bring to your attention that it becomes ever more clear by your stances and views as with those on the extreme left that you all side with terrorism.  You can spin it any way you want, but you come off as supporting terrorists.

When I speak of Israel, I speak of the Jews. 

You Said:  "And yes, I did bring Hitler into the conversation.  He systematically tied to wipe out a group of people, which is exactly what Israel is doing right now."

That statement is exactly what makes you anti-Semitic.  The fact that you can compare Israel to Nazi Germany is obscene and anti-Semitic.  You are using something horrific done to the Jews (who make up 75% or more of the Israeli population) and using it to illustrate what you perceive is going on in the Gaza Strip.  Can you not find some other means to make your point other than conjuring up prejudice perpetrated by Hitler?  Could you have maybe made your comparison to Kosovo/Bosnia?  Nope, you chose the holocaust to illustrate your point.  You intent was to shock and to be controversial.  You wanted to provoke a reaction. 

What exactly did you think using the name "Hitler" would provoke?  You argument in and of itself is anti-Semitic. 

By the way, I am a messianic Jew.  I know a little bit about anti-Semitism.  So before you continue to insult both my intelligence and my homeland, choose your words wisely.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637

Notice the number of civilian casualties already.  I guess the US is going to ignore that as well.

Can you disprove any of the history I have provided?  Can you disprove that the Jews bought undeveloped land from the palestinians -- not occupied, BOUGHT IT?!?!?!?!  Can you disprove that Arafat was a terrorist pocketing an and all aid the U.S. gave to the palestinians?  Can you disprove anything I have said or is your whole argument that it's all a lie?  There are legal documents and reports from commissions of educated unbiased people that prove what I am saying is true!

You are right this whole argument is beating a dead horse.  I have my truth and you have yours.  Your truth is a web of lies spun by known terrorists.  Time will tell whose truth is the real truth and I pray for your soul when that day comes.

Below is a Jewish editorial.  One of the comments made by a reader of the editorial, also a Jew, was that Israel ITSELF felt the Gaza pull-out might help abate some level of terrorism.  So, you're saying that Israel itself is anti-Semitic?  Could you PLEASE stop with your lying and constant twisting of the truth?

Cindy Sheehan is purported to have said that if Israel pulls out of Palestine it will contribute to a reduction in terror. That sounds like a pretty reasonable statement to me. If I hear another white, right-wing, Christian pundit speak for the Jewish community again and call Cindy Sheehan an anti-Semite for that statement, I think I am going to explode. The same goes for the Jewish pundits who are part of a radical minority of Jews in they way they come down on this issue. It is obscene and wrong to call her anti-Semitic, and all Jews in the country should pay close attention to and not forget the arguments that the GOP and its mouthpieces are trying to make on this occasion.

As a member of the Jewish community I can say that it is likely that the vast majority of Jews in this country (76% of whom voted for John Kerry) realize that the separation between George Bush and Cindy Sheehan on the Israel issue is minimal at best. Bush did better with Jews than his predecessors, but to come away in 2004 with just 24% of the Jewish vote, and then to try to play the “religion-card” in this circumstance leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. There is an underlying feeling of anti-Semitism emanating from the person playing the “religion-card”.

A small minority of Jews believe in a manner similar to Republicans and the George Bush administration. They believe that anything goes; the ends justifies the means; ethics is not important as long as you win; caring for the poor, sick, and helpless in the community take a back seat to capitalism, and it is better to get a tax cut during war than to shoulder a heavier weight to prepare our government (and its budget deficit) for our children. Most Jews do not subscribe to this philosophy.

We are by and large Democrats and we by and large share the values of Cindy Sheehan, and to tarnish her as an anti-Semite and associate her with the likes of racist-Republican David Duke, as some have done, is obscene. Some Jews in this small minority may speak out against Cindy Sheehan. While they are entitled to their opinions, they are not entitled to speak for the vast majority of Jews. The voices of this radical minority are much louder right now, and in fact this is a direct result of the Republican Party having a superior message machine and media infrastructure than the Democrats.

A brief history lesson might be instructive as to why the political party in America with a “religion problem” and a “race problem” is the Republican Party. Howard Dean called the Republican Party mainly a "white-Christian party". One can argue about whether he was tactful or not when he said it, but what he said was essentially true. One of the ONLY demographics Republicans win consistently is white, Christian men. Lucky for them it is a large demographic. Democrats, on the other hand, win with Latinos, blacks, immigrants, gays, and Jews (pretty much everyone else).

These voters are not stupid. They vote the way they do for reasons. Most Jews support Democrats for the very reason that there is no component of racism or religious persecution in that party. Moreover the Democrats by and large believe in peace, social justice, social tolerance, religious tolerance, minimum wages and standards that can improve the lives for the weakest among us, cheaper health care for the sick, dying, and mentally ill, and an education system that works in a manner that is equal for all, and without any external religions pushed on the students.

Most Jews support Cindy Sheehan because she is acting in a manner that is consistent with (and even required by) the bible. She is speaking out for peace in a non-violent manner, and almost shaming the President to finally devise a plan for Iraq. Anyone who would attack her for that is suspect at best. From a Christian perspective you should ask yourself “what would Jesus be doing?” Would he be protesting the war right now or flying a fighter jet to carpet-bomb Fallujah?

The "white-Christian" Republican Party is supported mainly by the “white-Christian” Southerners--the same descendants of former slaveholders, with an only partially changed mentality. Abraham Lincoln called himself a Republican, but everyone knows that the Republican Party of Lincoln is now the Democratic Party, and the descendants of the Democratic Party of the segregated-South, make up the current Republican base.

The anti-Semitic, anti-black Southerners, from Zell Miller, to David Duke, to Tony Perkins, to Trent Lott, to Jesse Helms, to Strom Thurmond, are all remnants of the racist past of the Democratic Party, who are now firmly implanted at the highest levels of the Republican Party. Some of these Republicans have even switched parties in our lifetime from Democrat to Republican, ala Strom Thurmond and David Duke, or switched this millenium ala Zell Miller, providing even further proof that if Abraham Lincoln were alive today he would be called a “liberal” by James Dobson and would be a key component of the Democratic Party.

This shift is not unnoticed to Jews, and apparently other minorities see it as well (88% of African-Americans voted for Kerry). The base of the segregated South is now the Republican base. The family-values, anti-gay, Christian prayer in school crowd, who are a danger to Jewish culture and an overt threat to the African-American descendants of the freed slaves, are the people that should be worried about the label of anti-Semite, not Cindy Sheehan.

Cindy Sheehan's statement on Israel, if she even made them at all, sounds exactly like Bush's public position. She wants Israel to leave Palestine and she thinks that will contribute to peace in the Middle East. Guess what, big shocker, SHE IS RIGHT. Israel pulling back will not be an end all to terror, nothing will, but certainly it will help. If Cindy Sheehan understands this fundamental concept, why doesn’t George Bush?

This post is also available at RAFC.org and