What bothers me about abortion is...
Posted By: SM on 2005-10-19
In Reply to: abortion will always be, whether legal or not - gt
the enormous numbers that need to be performed. In an age where birth control is so readily available and so reliably effective, that there are still SO MANY women seeking abortions, tells me one thing.....
People are careless, that is all. What other conclusion could you draw? If you only had true accidental pregnancies resulting from the small percentage failure rate of most contraceptives, the incest, the rapes, and the abortions to save a woman's life, it still wouldn't add up to a tiny fraction of the abortions we have now.
Every time I hear someone say that that it's a woman's right to choose, or to control her own body, I can't help but hear a little voice saying... THEN CHOOSE NOT TO GET PREGNANT, BE RESPONSIBLE, DON'T HOOK UP WITH SOME LOSER IN A BACK SEAT WHILE YOU'RE LOADED UP ON BOOZE, AND CONTROL YOUR BODY.
Why does choicie and control of one's body only begin after conception takes place?
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WARNNG...ANOTHER ABORTION POST....DON'T READ IF IT BOTHERS YOU.
Introductory Notes on Terminology: |
One of the major battlegrounds for this issue concerns the use of language. In keeping with our Standards of Credibility, the verbiage used here is explanatory and precise. This means expressions such as 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' are replaced by words that articulate specific positions. This makes certain sentences cumbersome and repetitive, but for the sake of accuracy, sacrifices in eloquence were made.
Perhaps the largest point of contention regarding terminology is the label applied to what or who is being aborted. Those who think abortion should be generally illegal often use the terms 'unborn child' and 'unborn baby'. According to Webster's College Dictionary and the International Dictionary of Medicine and Biology, the word child can apply prior to birth, but both of these sources employ the word baby only from the point of birth onwards.[1] Those who think abortion should be generally legal often use the word 'fetus', a clinical term derived from a Latin word meaning 'offspring' or 'newly delivered'.[2] Many who use this term in the media and general public are misinformed as to what it means. Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary defines a fetus as:
"the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, after major structures have been outlined, in humans from nine weeks after fertilization until birth." [3] |
In other words, when referring to humans, the word fetus is only applicable from nine weeks after conception until birth. Yet, numerous major news organizations have misapplied it to both before and after this period. [4] [5] Furthermore, the press rarely uses clinical terminology when referring to a pregnant woman ('gravida') or a newborn child ('neonate'). [6] [7]
The term chosen by Just Facts to describe the object of an abortion is 'preborn human'. This phrase is medically accurate, distinguishes between humans and other mammals, and conveys reality in plain language. For those who might object to the use of the word 'human', a few medical references are in order. The medical textbook, Before We Are Born - Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects, states:
"The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms." [8] |
Likewise, a clinical embryology textbook bears the title Human Life Before Birth, and phrases such as "human in utero" and "human females... in utero" appear in creditable medical textbooks. [9] Moreover, it would be scientifically inconsistent to assert that a child born at 24 weeks after fertilization is a human, while one in womb at 37 weeks is not.
* The average length of a full-term pregnancy is 266 days or 38 weeks. Obstetricians normally use a figure of 40 weeks, but this is actually the time between the first day of the last menstrual period and childbirth. On average, the first day of the last menstrual period occurs 2 weeks before fertilization.[10] [11]
* Following are facts about human development. They are organized according to the number of weeks since fertilization. Weeks after the first day of the last menstrual period (LMP) are shown in parentheses.
Fertilization (2 weeks after LMP)
Fertilization normally takes place within one day of intercourse. At fertilization, the genetic composition of a preborn human is formed. This genetic information determines gender, eye color, hair color, facial features, and influences characteristics such as intelligence and personality.[219] [220] [221]
Genetically speaking, with the exception of identical twins, once a woman conceives a preborn human, the odds against her conceiving the same one again are greater than 10600 to one. (10600 is ShortHand for the number 1 with 600 zeros after it. For comparison, there are roughly 1080 atoms in the known universe.) [222] [223] [224] [225]
3 Weeks after Fertilization (5 weeks after LMP)
The eyes and spinal cord are visible and the developing brain has two lobes.[12] [13]
At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)
4 Weeks after Fertilization (6 weeks after LMP)
The heart is beating. The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) and internal organs such as the lungs are beginning to develop and can be identified.[14] [15]
7 Weeks after Fertilization (9 weeks after LMP)
Muscles and nerves begin working together. When the upper lip is tickled, the arms move backwards.[16] The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) has divided into hemispheres.[17]
![abortion7weeks.gif](http://www.justfacts.com/images/abortion7weeks.gif") [18]
9 Weeks after Fertilization (11 weeks after LMP)
More than 90% of the body structures found in a full-grown human are present. The medical classification changes from an embryo to a fetus. This dividing line was chosen by embryologists because from this point forward, most development involves growth in existing body structures instead of the formation of new ones.[19] [20]The preborn human moves body parts without any outside stimulation.[21]
10 Weeks after Fertilization (12 weeks after LMP)
All parts of the brain and spinal cord are formed. The heart pumps blood to every part of the body.[22] The whole body is sensitive to touch except for portions of the head. The preborn human makes facial expressions.[23]
At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)
11 Weeks after Fertilization (13 weeks after LMP):
![](http://www.justfacts.com/images/abortion11weeks.gif") [24]
12 Weeks after Fertilization (14 weeks after LMP)
Electrical signals from the nervous system are measurable. After an abortion, efforts to suckle will sometimes be observed.[25]
13 Weeks after Fertilization (15 weeks after LMP):
Ultrasound Video [26] Windows Media Player Real Player
14 Weeks after Fertilization (16 weeks after LMP)
The preborn human makes coordinated movements of the arms and legs.[27]
16 Weeks after Fertilization (18 weeks after LMP)
![](http://www.justfacts.com/images/abortion16weeks.gif") [28]
18 Weeks after Fertilization (20 weeks after LMP)
Ultrasound Video [29] Windows Media Player Real Player
The portion of the brain responsible for functions such as reasoning and memory (the cerebral cortex) has the same number of nerve cells as a full-grown adult.[30] [31]
At this stage, according to the Supreme Court rulings in "Roe vs. Wade" and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort at will. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)
20 Weeks after Fertilization (22 weeks after LMP):
The preborn human sleeps, awakes and can hear sounds.[32]
![](http://www.justfacts.com/images/abortion20weeks.gif")
Ultrasound Video (Heart) [33] Windows Media Player Real Player
24 Weeks after Fertilization (26 weeks after LMP)
Taste buds are functional. The preborn human will swallow more amniotic fluid if a sweetener is added to it.[34] The grip is strong enough to hold onto an object that is moving up and down.[35] If born and given specialized care, the survival rate is more than 80%.[36]
At this stage, according to the Supreme Court's rulings in "Roe vs. Wade," "Doe vs. Bolton," and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort to preserve her "health." One example from Roe vs. Wade of what may be considered harmful to a mother's health is the "stigma of unwed motherhood." (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)
28 Weeks after Fertilization (30 weeks after LMP)
If born and given specialized care, the survival rate is more than 95%.[37]
Premature infants born at this time are more sensitive to pain than infants who are born at 38 weeks, and infants who are born at 38 weeks are more sensitive to pain than older infants (3 -12 months old.) [38] [39]
32 Weeks after Fertilization (34 weeks after LMP)
![](http://www.justfacts.com/images/abortion32weeks.gif")
(Premature infant – 3 days after birth)
38 Weeks after Fertilization (40 weeks after LMP)
Average point in time when humans are born. At birth, the medical classification changes from a fetus to a neonate.[40] [41] At any point prior to birth, according to the Supreme Court's rulings in "Roe vs. Wade," "Doe vs. Bolton," and "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey," a pregnant woman can abort to preserve her "health." One example from Roe vs. Wade of what may be considered harmful to a mother's health is the work of caring for a child. (Details in the section on Constitution and Law.)
* In March of 1970, a pregnant woman by the name of Norma McCorvey sued the state of Texas to challenge the constitutionality of a state law that prohibited abortion except to save the life of the mother.[42] McCorvey wanted to keep her identity secret and assumed the fictitious name Jane Roe.[43] The name of the Dallas County district attorney responsible for enforcing the law was Henry Wade. Thus, the case was entitled "Roe vs. Wade."
* Before the United States Supreme Court, the attorney for Roe argued that the Texas law was unconstitutional because it violated the Ninth and Fourteenth Amendments.[44] The Ninth Amendment reads:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." [45] |
The clause of the Fourteenth Amendment relevant to the argument reads:
"No State shall… deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…" [46] |
* In support of this view, the attorney for Roe stated that "liberty to these women would mean liberty from being forced to continue the unwanted pregnancy." [47]
* During oral arguments, one of the judges asked the attorney for Roe if her case was dependent on the assertion that pre-born humans have no Constitutional rights. After some back and forth, the attorney for Roe responded:
"Even if the Court at some point determined the fetus to be entitled to constitutional protection, you would still get back into the weighing of one life against another." |
After more back and forth, another judge said to Roe's attorney:
"[To take this position], you'd have to say that this would be the equivalent after the child was born if the mother thought it bothered her health any having the child around, she could have it killed. Isn't that correct?" |
The attorney for Roe responded:
"That's correct. That..." |
At this point, the Chief Justice cut her off and started to ask another question. He then interrupted himself and asked:
"Did you want to respond further to Justice Stewart? Did you want to respond further to him?" |
The attorney for Roe stated:
* The attorney for the State of Texas argued that preborn humans are protected under the Fifth Amendment.[49] The portion relevant to the argument states:
"No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…" [50] |
* During oral arguments, one of the judges contested this viewpoint by asserting that the Fourteenth Amendment defined what the term "person" meant, and that it did not include preborn humans.[51] The relevant clause reads:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."[52] |
* After some back and forth, the judge retreated from this position and said:
"[I suppose] that's not the definition of a person but that's the definition of a citizen." [53] |
* The attorney for the State of Texas responded that the only way to understand what the Constitution means by the word "person" was to go to "the teachings at the time the Constitution was framed." He then quoted from William Blackstone, who is described in Simon & Shuster's New Millennium Encyclopedia as a "British jurist and legal scholar, whose work Commentaries on the Laws of England was used for more than a century as the foundation of all legal education in Great Britain and the U.S." In this work, Blackstone wrote that life is a "right" that
"is inherent by nature in every individual, and exists even before the child is born." [54] [55] |
* To further support his position, the attorney for the state of Texas appealed to the Declaration of Independence and started to quote the following sentence from it, but was cut off by one of justices: [56]
"WE hold these [cut off] Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." [57] |
* On January 22, 1973, the Supreme Court released its ruling. Seven of the judges ruled in favor of Roe and two of the judges opposed the ruling. The ruling overturned the laws of 30 states that prohibited abortion except to save the life of the mother.[58]
* The majority ruled these laws unconstitutional on the basis that they violated the Fourteenth Amendment, stating that it protects "the right to privacy," and that this includes "a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy." [59] The relevant portion of the Fourteenth Amendment reads:
"No State shall… deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…" [60] |
* The Fourteenth Amendment does not contain the word "privacy" or any synonym for it.[61] [62] It was adopted in 1868 to address a number of issues relevant to the Civil War, such as ensuring constitutional rights for black people.[63]
* The majority wrote that they were "not in a position to speculate" as to "when life begins" and criticized the State of Texas for "adopting one theory of life," namely, that life begins at conception.[64]
* They also:
- Used the term "potentiality of human life" in reference to preborn humans who are capable of living outside the mother's womb.[65]
- Ruled that preborn humans have no Constitutional rights.[66]
* The majority created rules regarding the types of abortion legislation that states could enact based upon the three trimesters of a typical pregnancy:
1) First trimester: States cannot prohibit abortions. They can require that abortions be done by licensed physicians, but other than this, they cannot regulate the manner in which they are performed.[67]
2) Second trimester: States cannot prohibit abortions. They can regulate the manner in which they are performed for the purpose of protecting the mother's health. The ruling cites examples of the types of regulations that are permissible. These include establishing "qualifications [for] the person who is to perform the abortion" and setting rules regarding "the facility in which the procedure is to be performed." [68]
3) Third trimester: States can prohibit abortions after "viability" (meaning the point where a preborn human is capable of living outside their mother's womb), but cannot prohibit abortions "where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother." [69] The ruling cites specific examples of what may be considered harmful to a mother's health. They include the "stigma of unwed motherhood," the work of caring for a child, and the "distress" "associated with [an] unwanted child." [70] [71]
After listing these examples and others, the majority wrote that this portion of their ruling does not permit abortions "at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason" a woman chooses.[72] They repeated this assertion four times using varying words, but listed no example of a circumstance where abortion could be prohibited.[73]
* On the same day that the Supreme Court released Roe vs. Wade, it issued another ruling in a case entitled "Doe vs. Bolton." The same seven judges who ruled in favor of Roe also ruled in favor of Doe, and the same two judges opposed the ruling. [75] The majority wrote that this ruling and Roe v Wade "are to be read together." [76]
* In this case, the State of Georgia had a law prohibiting abortions unless the pregnancy would "seriously and permanently" injure the health of the mother.[77] A lower court struck down this law and the majority of the Supreme Court agreed. The ruling stated that abortion laws with exceptions for the health of the mother must allow for factors such as emotional health, psychological health, familial concerns, and the woman's age.[78]
* The Georgia law also required that the doctor who would perform the abortion, two other doctors, and a committee of the medical staff at the hospital where the abortion was to be done needed to agree that the abortion was necessary to preserve the health of the mother.[79] The lower court upheld this law and the Supreme Court struck it down.[80] The majority ruled that only the doctor who would perform the abortion needs to determine that the abortion was necessary to preserve the health of the mother. The abortion provider could make this decision based solely on their "best clinical judgment." [81]
* In 1992, the Supreme Court decided a case entitled "Planned Parenthood vs. Casey." In this case, the majority reaffirmed the central element of Roe vs. Wade, but did away with the "rigid trimester framework." [82]
* As in Roe vs. Wade, the majority ruled that states cannot prohibit abortions prior to viability, and laws that prohibit abortion after viability must include an exception for the "health of the mother." [83]
* Contrary to Roe vs. Wade, the majority ruled that states could enact laws that regulated abortion throughout pregnancy; as long as they did not create a substantial obstacle to obtaining an abortion. An example of what would be acceptable is a law requiring that doctors provide women with certain information before they perform abortions.[84]
Politics & Taxpayer Funding |
* The Democratic Party is in favor of abortion being generally legal. It supports the Supreme Court ruling in Roe vs. Wade. It supports the use of taxpayer funding to perform abortions.[85]
* The Republican Party is in favor of abortion being generally illegal. It supports a Constitutional Amendment that would guarantee preborn humans the right to life. Since 1995, Republicans have proposed at least 12 amendments of this nature, all of them containing an exception to save the life of the mother.[86] [87]
* The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) supports the use of taxpayer funding to perform abortions. On their website, the ACLU poses the following rhetorical question:
"What about those who are morally or religiously opposed to abortion?" |
And answers:
"Our tax dollars fund many programs that individual people oppose." [88] |
* The ACLU opposes school vouchers. One of the reasons they give for this stance is:
"School voucher schemes would force all taxpayers to support religious beliefs and practices with which they may strongly disagree." [89] |
My belief? "late-term abortion" or partial-birth abortion" = infanticide, it is sickening
So in these cases I do think, as in most things, there is no ABSOLUTE, but a judicious guideline for this should be investigated and established by the medical community, as far as survival/outcome, but then we must be willing to prosecute mothers and doctors who go outside the guidelines...with established jail terms....and more money to house these "criminals" for years. Why not let God by the ultimate judge, He has the wisdom and the power, and eternity without God is worse than anything we as humans can mandate, don't you think?
meant is against abortion...didn't mean supports abortion (NM)
What bothers me is ....
that nobody can explain exactly how the woman was COVERT? Everybody and his 3rd cousin knew where she worked, and all she did was push paper at a desk. To me this is much adieu about nothing.
you do not need to tell me what bothers me
rather, you seem to have little tolerance for those different than you.
I'm sorry it bothers you so much to
know there is someone you cannot intimidate. I am by far healthy, wealthy and wise beyond your expectations and it really bothers you, too bad. I wish you could know a fraction of the happiness and love that I have in my life. I wish that for all of your personalities that you post as here. You must really be one miserable person and I hope you have something to thrive on after this election is over.
Thanks, Em! It really bothers me when
years.* Dead giveaway that President Bush was not given a chance from day one. I have mentioned this before on here. Yet we hear repeatedly *give O a chance, he isn't even in the office yet.* Just more of the double standard the liberals have.
I agree, it is CRAZY here! I can't spend as much time here as I would like; I have to work harder than ever these days, MTing doesn't pay very well any more! Besides, there is one poster who monopolizes the board, albeit with many different little catch phrase names. Can't figure out why she spends so much time trying to keep arguments going here; she has told us repeatedly how intelligent and industrious she is. With all her community involvement, world traveling and all the research she does, just can't figure where she ever found the time to be a lowly MT! If you will notice closely, she even argues with herself at times.
Oh well, Thank you again for your post, and do come back and post again!
It bothers me because
people fail to see that there is corruption in both parties. Our country switches back and forth between pub control and crat control. When one party screws up and the people get p!ssed, the other party gets more control. That is the natural way of this. So for someone to come on here and brag that the pubs are losing people and how do you like those apples....I just think it is childish and that person needs a wake up call. There are plenty of crats who have screwed us over as well and no one in the crat party is willing to admit it. All they want to talk about is how the pubs suck and it goes both ways.....the pubs just want to fling poo at crats and not look into the corruption of their own party. I'm tired of it from both sides. If people would wake up and actually listen to what is going in our country, they might get a clue that both parties suck and that maybe we should elect people who aren't puppets to the people who donated to their campaigns. Our government as a whole is corrupt. It is obvious that both pubs and dems have no problem spending our money but now that the crats are in control and the people are seriously ticked off.....all of a sudden the pubs have taken up the cause to stop government spending.
What bothers you about the facts?
Does it scare you or do you just refuse to see the facts? This country has been borrowing from foreign countries (communist China big time)and the federal reserve to the tune of billions long before and after any republican and long before and after any democrat.
We have not had a surplus since the banking administration was developed a very long time ago.
What really bothers you? The post or that someone
??
About as much as it bothers you that poster boy
x
Yes! It's not the rich & special treatment that bothers me.
He made tougher laws for drug crimes. The rich will alwys get better treatment. Paris Hilton's special treatment doesn't scare me. She isn't putting people in jail for her same offense.
If it bothers you, don't read'em....I have a job AND a life...
thank you very much. I also have things that are important to me, and the next President of the US and abortion are two of them.
Thoughtful post. What bothers me is that religious
nm
Abortion is for men. nm
This isn't abortion!
Read it again: the child is already out of the womb and breathing! the child is BORN. Not a fetus.
Your telling me that a child that is born from a botched abortion should be left to die?
That is what this bill is about. If a child is born after an abortion attempt, that it should be treated as a US citizen with all rights of a citizen given, including the right to lifesaving medical care. You don't think that's fair?
Abortion
Haven't you guys who are going on about this given any thought that every time politicians start speaking of abortion, gay marriage, etc., it is a smoke screen. They know how to push our buttons, but then they are always hiding something else. The know if they keep our minds on these types of issues, we won't be paying attention to other under-handed things that are going on.
This is not about abortion. It is about a man who...
voted AGAINST giving medical care infants who survive abortion, who are living and breathing outside the mother and unattached even by the umbilical cord. That is horrific, and frankly I don't feel real good about someone who wants to fight for that TO happen, instead of AGAINST it happening. If he can't muster up enough sympathy for poor children dying alone in a dirty clothes closet, how could I possibly believe he cares about the "middle class?"
Talk about a STRETCH.
abortion
I think that it is sad that people do not believe abortion is murder. I am pregnant by surprise and had an ultrasound at 12 weeks (when many abortions are performed) and was able to see my baby move around and his hands and feet. If that is not a baby, heaven help us all. Having said that, I am not sure that abortion should be illegal. In my heart, I know that it is wrong, but in my head, I also know that it will continue to happen in an unsafe manner if it were to become illegal. However, perhaps not so prevalently, so this is a toughie for me, but I cannot believe that God condones it.
ABORTION
who KNOWS there are other alternatives out there? Come on people!! We all type this stuff...There are sooooo many different kinds of birth control out there. Why wait and kill a baby? Bottom line, that's what abortion is. I just cannot believe the mentality of some of you people. I may not have all the fancy words some of you use but I think this is just common sense. I don't even know that I think a woman should have her "choice" taken away but I do think abortion should not be considered birth control. If you don't want to have a baby and CHOOSE abortion, and it happens again and again, how about an old fashioned TUBAL LIGATION? All this talk truly makes me ill to my stomach.
I'm curious how many of you out there are willing to fess up about an abortion and sharing your feelings about your "choice." My sister had a "choice" to make years ago and she has nightmares about it still. The guilt she has felt is unreal. Maybe some of you do live with yourselves and I honestly think any woman who has made this "choice" and can live with herself without any sort of guilt EVER, is just a very hard person.
Abortion
I agree
you won't go into abortion because........ sm
somewhere, deep inside, you know it is murder...a sin in God's eyes just as much as adultery.
The issue is not about choice (and I have other views on that word as well) but about the taking of innocent lives who have no voice to speak for themselves. As far as welfare....it's coming already and it won't be me who pays, unless that top income bracket keeps spiraling downward into the low 5-figure numbers which is not an impossibility.
On abortion
Solomon's wisdom still at work today.....
A worried woman went to her gynecologist and said:
'Doctor, I have a serious problem and desperately need your help! My baby is not even 1 yr. old and I'm
pregnant again. I don't want kids so close together.'
So the doctor said: 'Ok, and what do you want me to do?'
She said: 'I want you to end my pregnancy, and I'm counting on your help with this.'
The doctor thought for a little, and after some silence he said to the lady: 'I think I have a better solution
for your problem. It's less dangerous for you too.' She smiled, thinking that the doctor was going to accept
her request.
Then he continued: 'You see, in order for you not to have to take care of 2 babies at the same time, let's
kill the one in your arms. This way, you could rest some before the other one is born. If we're going to kill
one of them, it doesn't matter which one it is. There would be no risk for your body if you chose the one in your
arms.'
The lady was horrified and said: 'No doctor! How terrible! It's a crime to kill a child!'
'I agree', the doctor replied. 'But you seemed to be ok with it, so I thought maybe that was the best
solution.' The doctor smiled, realizing that he had made his point.
He convinced the mom that there is no difference in killing a child that's already been born and one that's
still in the womb. The crime is the same!
Oh if our current judicial system could only understand this fact.
Abortion..............s/m
You can talk your heart out, I was, am and will always be pro-abortion.
Till to the end of the 3rd month of pregnancy it is the mother who has the right to end the pregnancy.
Who is going to help me in all aspects if I, as the mother, know that I will most probably not be able to care and provide for this child? Not for all mothers is the option of adoption, this means GIVING AWAY one's flesh and blood to STRANGERS an acceptable option.
I am against partial birth abortion.
Really, no one is pro-abortion......
The term is pro-choice and there are a lot of Americans who are pro-choice. If you think they are going to overturn Roe vs Wade to satisfy less than half the population - you will be disappointed. This is just a political joust to get people arguing - with no end in sight. Give it up. They thought they'd win another election with this tired, worn out "issue" - and they were wrong.
And this is different from abortion... How? sm
Abortion is the ending of a life, plain and simple. Yet people get all up in arms when their "right to choose" is taken away from them.
I am not advocating this woman's choice in the least. I personally think she should be prosecuted for what she has done, just as I believe women who have abortions and the doctors who perform them should be prosecuted. There is no difference.
I feel the same way about abortion. sm
nm
I don't know where they want to go with it, but abortion is a choice..sm
and last time I checked it was not limited to one race. Can that same one prove that more blacks abort than whites? There goes that theory.
abortion will always be, whether legal or not
What these anti pro choice people dont seem to realize is, termination of pregnancy will continue whether it is legal or not. The only difference is it will go underground, performed by people who are not licensed and the rich women, they will just make an appointment in a progressive not backward country like America and have their abortion. Essentially women will be baby makers for the government, their bodies controlled by the government. What it comes down to is..the neocons need to mind their own business.
Okay....McCain is against abortion....
is that better than calling him pro life?
"He voted against sending innocent Americans to a country we had no business going to all because of lies put out by the "republicans"."
First, I am not a Republican, but you cannot lay all the blame for going to war at the feet of Republicans, that's number one. A good many Democrats voted to go to war, otherwise we would not have gone to war. They were talking about regime change in Iraq when Clinton was President. Bush did not invent it. In fact, when Bush was elected the first time, he kept Richard Clarke and George Tenet over from the Clinton administration...both of whom brought with them the idea of regime change in Iraq from the Clinton administration. You should read the quotes from Democrats from the Clinton era through 2003. Either they were all lying too or they believed the intelligence too. I just don't get how people can read those quotes, totally ignore them, and say it was all Bush's lie or the Republicans' lies. I refer you to a post below that illustrates all those quotes. Either they were all lying, Clinton, Bush, CLarke, Tenet, all those Democrats including Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and on and on...either they were ALL lying or they ALL believed the intelligence. That is the ONLY thing that makes any sense based on their own quotes out of their own mouths. This old chestnut of "Bush lied men died" and "all caused by Republican lies" is the biggest lie of all.
How you vote is your business and you should do whatever your conscience tells you to do, as I am.
As to Jill Stanek...google her. The story is true. If the story were NOT true, the hospital she names would sue her, don't you think? They don't sue because it happened. They issued a birth and death certificate for that child. Everyone knows what happened. She came forward to try to get a law passed that would prohibit that from every happening again (and bless her for doing so) and Obama voted against it...3 times. That is a matter of record in the Illinois state senate. He and his wife are vocal supporters of all forms of abortion, including partial birth abortion. You heard him say in the video that "options should not be limited." That is exactly what he meant. And that, my friend, devalues human life and makes him doubly dangerous as far as I am concerned. And he said it with equal "lack of emotion."
Yes, it was barbaric to let that poor child just die. Horrific. Just as horrific is partial birth abortion. Look that up some time, what they actually do during that procedure, just to avoid what happened above...a live birth. They turn the child breech so that all the body except the head can be born. Then the needle at the base of the skull, suck the brain out and collapse the skill, killing the baby so that it is "born dead." Because if the head came first and the baby took a breath and THEN the brain was sucked out...THAT would be murder. So some inventive doctor figured turn the baby around and suck the brain out while the head is still inside the mother. That is barbaric. And it happens every day in this country. Legally. John McCain is against that. Barack Obama is for that. Enough said as far as I am concerned. And I agree...when are enough murdered babies enough? How many more million?
Spontaneous abortion is hardly....
the same thing as induced abortion...that's a stretch.
Okay, if where I get my polls is wrong and where you get yours is right, why not put it a vote of the people? Because, no matter what someone "says," it is a different story when you have to pull the lever and put what you say into action. Congress would never act on it or you would have a real abortion law instead of one shoved down our throats by judges. Just a question here...suppose a conservative majority got in the supreme court and struck down Roe vs. Wade? Would you defend their right to do that the same away you defend their right to strike down a law making abortion illegal? Somehow I doubt it. Would probably be first in line to say you can't legislate from the bench...just like I am saying. They are to interpret law..not make law. But, doesn't matter. It's a done deed. But last time I looked I had the right as s citizen to oppose it. Just exercising my right. Sorry if it chaps.
Good grief...silly statement. Of course I don't picture a 9-month gestation. I picture a human life being snuffed out. I see one human being given total control over the life of another. And to me, that is wrong. Especially one who is defenseless.
There is much more there than a "mass of cells" at 8, 10, 12 weeks. And if it makes you feel better to think it feels no pain, fine. I am not willing to assume that.
I agree whole-heartedly with everything you said in your last paragraph, but I would like to add teach responsibility for one's own actions. There are Planned Parenthood Clinics everywhere and if not, your local health department will dole out birth control. That is a pretty lame excuse as far as I am concerned. But what is the motivation for anyone to seek it? We already have a legal "oops" method in place.
Wow....have seen abortion videos before but....
whew. The responsibility of knowledge. People should realize the ramifications of "choice." They should know what they are choosing and supporting. Absolutely horrific. Can't hardly type this for the tears.
Abortion is murder....
plan and simple. People scream and complain about the war and how we are killing innocent people.....yet they never seem to focus on the innocent children who are murdered by their mothers every day in our own country. Those are the real baby killers. That is a human life that you are getting rid of....disposing off like it is trash.
It amazes me how a pregnant woman can be killed and it is considered a double homicide and yet other pregnant woman can go kill the baby themselves at a clinic and that is okay.....no big deal. Talk about a contradiction. I living thing is a living thing whether it is still in the womb or not. You kill it.....you are a murderer!!!
You hypocrites..abortion is ok, but
nm
And how do you feel about abortion?
nm
about the abortion issue
At least that explains why u are for McCain. What I don't understand is pro choice people voting for McCain. Nobody said it's murder or not murder. I personally think it isn't and you personally think it is. Why are there no funerals for fetuses of miscarriages? yes, it is a moral issue but I will not dictate to someone that if they are raped OR whatever the reason is.. that they cannot have an abortion. That said, it does explain why you vote for McCain. The other people are a mystery.
Well, Biden is against abortion.
I think a woman should have a right to choose no matter what the circumstance. And all of you saying you want to pay more taxes for these children born out of wedlock like Palin's daughter, then you're being hypocritical. You either want to pay more for these programs or you don't.
Just because someone wants to adopt a child doesn't mean they are good parents.
FYI to poster in this thread; STDs do take lives. AIDS kills. If the doctor doesn't treat the patient and educate them on safety especially homosexuals, an STD will take a life.
There is no one forcing you to get an abortion. nm
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Abortion : adoption....s/m
What reasoning is it that the GOVERNMENT or CHURCH has the right to decide what happens to M Y embryo????
Up to the 5th month, later it is a crime.
I am absolutely AGAINST partial birth abortion, only if the life of the mother is in danger.
Hate to say anything on here but I do not believe in abortion either.
To each her own, but I would always wonder what the sex of my baby would have been and what kind of a person s/he would be in life, would cry at every birthday, holiday, etc., etc. My life would be "ruined" and I don't know how I would live with myself. But that's just me and I have a right to my opinion as do the rest but I don't think baby bashing is the right way to go. I do think it is a baby from conception and the only way to avoid getting pregnant is to say "no" to "him" not "no" to a baby. Watch the flaming I get now! I guess I will just stay off here for awhile and be happy around the holidays. Too much fighting on here - unhealthy place sometimes!
We were talking about abortion...... sm
And that statement was in the context of an unborn child who God does take sometimes for reasons unknown to us.
Don't try to compare apples to oranges. I'm not going to get into a long theological discussion on this forum with you because it is not the place, so we have been told by the moderators.
Abortion - tolerance?
I ask this in the politest way possible and with all due respect. I felt the need to say this after reading the posts below.
Is it possible to be a little more sensitive to those who have undergone an abortion for whatever reason and to be careful on the words being chosen, such as "murder." I'm sure there are some reading these posts who have had an abortion. It can be a very traumatizing thing to go through, which you cannot take back. There are some of us who have become pregnant with very deformed babies that would be extremely difficult to raise, including the possibility of not surviving after birth, where the choice to abort was difficult but a personal decision. I'm not saying it's the right choice. I'm just saying sometimes a woman feels there is no other.
I say this from experience because I had to make that choice, and when I read that people think I'm a murderer and killed my baby, it makes it that much more hard to bear because I will always, always regret it. I know I'm forgiven, but sometimes it's still hard to think---what if.
Just please be sensitive with the words you choose, and know there are those of us out here who have made this choice and regret it and have to live with it for the rest of our lives.
If you are against abortion, that's your business, but...
You have got a lot of nerve comparing abortion to the Holocaust!
Abortion is nothing new to this world....
Abortions have been carried out for centuries. The only difference is, they are legal in this country for the safety of the mother. I am not pro-abortion, but I am pro-choice. You have the right to what you wish with your body, I have the right to do the same. Keep your nose out of my womb.
OBAMANOMICS - abortion ?
GhostMom is absolutely correct. This is her choice. What right does anyone have to dictate to her NOW, about her job. First it is the abortion issue, and now you want to dictate to people what they can and can not do. Sounds Hitler-ian to me. This is preposterous. He has no experience in anything. I hope he gets stopped before my/your children have no future.
every once in a while the issue about abortion
comes up, leads to a lot of insulting and flaming comments back and forth, with no resolve.
Can we just stop discussing this issue?????
BTW, I am pro-choice, up to the end of 3rd month, it is my body and my life and my right to decide how many children I want to have, because I want to be able to care for ALL of my children, without needing support from charity organizations, the government or other people and I am AGAINST adoption.
This Octomon should have had my attitude, then she would NOT be in this miserable situation.
Please, NO REBUTTALS AND NO INSULTS following my post!
every once in a while the issue about abortion
comes up, leads to a lot of insulting and flaming comments back and forth, with no resolve.
Can we just stop discussing this issue?????
BTW, I am pro-choice, up to the end of 3rd month, it is my body and my life and my right to decide how many children I want to have, because I want to be able to care for ALL of my children, without needing support from charity organizations, the government or other people and I am AGAINST adoption.
This Octomon should have had my attitude, then she would NOT be in this miserable situation.
Please, NO REBUTTALS AND NO INSULTS following my post!
every now and then the issue pro-abortion
versus pro-life comes up on this forum. People comment back and forth until it gets out ouf hand and bashing sets in. Every time it ends in this way.
My opinion: It is justifiable to termiante a pregnancy up to the end of the 3rd month. AFTER that not.
I would regard an abortion performed during the last trimester of the pregnancy, what is called 'partial birth' abortion, as a crime and doctors who perform those abortions should definitely get punished and their license wtihdrawn.
Under no circumstances should it be allowed that a person kills a doctor who performs 'partial-birth' abortions. This renders also this person a murderer.
Please do not bash me for condoning abortions up to the end of the 3rd month, because I think that a mother has the right to decide. If during these 3 months she could not decide, then she should maintain her pregnancy, no abortion allowed.
While I disagree with abortion...
I do not think that calling what this nutjob did God's work is correct, nor is it really very smart. This only sets back any sort of headway that might be made for the pro-life movement by painting anyone who is pro-life as just as crazy as the man who murdered this abortionist. My God does not believe that two wrongs make a right. Both of these men are going to the very hot place in my book.
He believes in abortion. NM below
x
abortion versus rudolph
Science has not determined when life begins, at conception? After the first trimester? But the argument is moot, actually, as it is legal to get an abortion, it is not legal to take the law into your own hands and kill because you do not agree with the legal medical procedure that is being performed. Enormous difference. Law abiding citizens do not kill because they disagree with the law.
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