The procedure of partial birth abortion you describe is...sm
Posted By: oldtimer on 2008-09-17
In Reply to: Please share with me how I'm 100% wrong here. - Chele
somewhat true, as well as gruesome. However, It is never done as an elective procedure, rather as an emergency procedure in order to save the life of the mother when it is a breech delivery and the cervix clamps down before the head delivers, or when the fetus has died in utero. The few times I saw it done during my career, everyone in the room, sometimes even the doctor was crying. To say that someone choses this to get rid of a baby is simply just not true.
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My belief? "late-term abortion" or partial-birth abortion" = infanticide, it is sickening
So in these cases I do think, as in most things, there is no ABSOLUTE, but a judicious guideline for this should be investigated and established by the medical community, as far as survival/outcome, but then we must be willing to prosecute mothers and doctors who go outside the guidelines...with established jail terms....and more money to house these "criminals" for years. Why not let God by the ultimate judge, He has the wisdom and the power, and eternity without God is worse than anything we as humans can mandate, don't you think?
That you can say this about partial birth abortion sm
says to me that you are a proponent of relative morality or that you have no idea what partial birth abortion entails. Once a society starts with the whatever seems right to you mentality in regards to life, then we are doomed. Pardon me if I say that I am so glad I am not you.
Abortion shouldn't even be an issue. With all the forms of birth control
available, many at low or no cost, not to mention abstinence, abortion should not even be an issue. Too many people use it as a form of birth control and it isn't. I know there are some circumstances that warrant an abortion, but those are rare. Abortion may be legal, but it is immoral.
Why subject the rape victim to a surgical abortion. Birth is safer. nm
nm
Partial explanation perhaps?
I've been noticing that quite often when there is a conservative belief/claim being put forth repeatedly on this board (right now it's that Republicans always do the right thing and admit to their behavior and resign versus the Democrats who never do the right thing/can't admit their behavior and never resign), when doing research I find that the posters on this board are simply regurgitating what they are reading on the many far-right blogs/newsletters/publications. It's almost word for word. THere have been many examples in the past besides this most recent rant. At this point it seems that the far-rights are guilty of being unable to have original thoughts. Now let's see if they can do the right thing and admit it.......(laughter here, please).
On a more serious note, I never saw Clinton referred to as a serial rapist until reading this board. Once again, upon checking this out I see multiple, multiple references on -- you guessed it - multiple far-right-crazy political blogs/newsletters, etc......you get the idea. The thing that I find worrisome, though, is that we have been requested repeatedly not to bash Bush on this board in any fashion, yet past presidents (especially those that are Democrats) are fair game for any manner of accusations. If we shouldn't question Bush's decisions (as an example) because of how it will look to other countries who might read this forum, how does it look to call our former president a serial rapist?
That means you may be partial to SP?
if you don't care about experience?
Ok, I'm going to give you a partial okay on this one
Let me explain without sounding towards one side or the other.
Yes, Nov 4th was historic - not grass roots, just historic.
Since 11/4 so much has changed. I'm talking about changes that have not been good. I voted for the O thinking the changes would be good, as a lot of other democrats did too. We all expected good things. However, within less than 90 days he has done a world of damage.
These tea parties happening all over the country (sorry, think I did a typo earlier and said countries - but that may be a freudian slip). This is a true grass roots movement. Even us democrats who voted for him (and a heck of a lot of democrats who are in politics) are saying "wait a minute here. This is not what you campaigned on and this is not what you said you were going to do". Many people from both sides of teh political arena are saying enough. The spending has got to stop and stop NOW.
A note about community organizing. Community organizing is not having ACORN go around and register the same people 60 and 70 times. Community organizing IS exactly what these tea parties are. These tea parties are being organized by groups (if you ever had to organize a group function its no easy task), to arrange the stages, camera crews, professional musicians, guest speakers. This is organizations by people all over the country. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands turning out to say "We the people have a voice. Listen to what we are saying". We had enough of Bush's spending over an 8 year period, but now here he comes and within less than 3 months he has tripled the amount spent by Bush. If we didn't like Bush's spending, why in the world would anyone think we want this spending - and 3 times as much.
It's not a matter of democrat leadership versus republican leadership. We need a leader who will represent what the people want and what will make our nation once again great. We have that with neither party and people keep making this into a democrat versus republican issue. It is not. We should have one party and the politicians should be voted on based on their experience and how they perform their job, not what party they belong to. When it boils down to it "issues" do not have a political party. Homelessness is not republican or democrat. Unemployment is not democrat or republican, etc. Issues are issues, but people make them into democrat or republican.
When someone wants to speak up that they don't want to pay more in taxes, or they speak up because they have lost their job to an overseas company, or they speak up because they are losing their home because of the decisions that politicians in WA are making. Why are they made fun of and ridiculed.
Wanting the politicians in Washington to know how upset we are that the decisions they are making and that are having severe impacts on us (for the worst (worse?) is not a way of life for us, it's putting us in a prison without parole. So if we want to stand up and say something why are we labeled with horrible names like paranoid, racists, radical right-wingers, and everything else they are being called on this board and on the liberal media stations. I heard from a lot of democrat speakers today and they said they are even tired of it.
So yes, 11/4 was a great day. People put aside their racist viewpoints and voted for a man, yet this man that I voted for is much different than the man that campaigned. So much has changed. While 11/4 was a memorable day, today is a true grass roots movement.
I'm glad that there are many others like me.
meant is against abortion...didn't mean supports abortion (NM)
oops, ignore the last partial sentence....nm
I used those words to describe...
supporting the effort in Afghanistan but not supporting the effort in Iraq. Perhaps I should have said abandoned rather than thrown to the dogs. Means the same to me. As to Sheehan, this is the Sheehan family statement:
In response to questions regarding the Cindy Sheehan/Crawford Texas issue: Sheehan Family Statement:
The Sheehan Family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq War and we have been silently, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan Family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect.
You describe yourself as a liberal, right?
nm
lets describe you
You are the most intelligent man on the face of the earth. No one understands your amazing gifts. No one gets your subtle humor. And yet, here you sit, wasting your intellect on a bunch of young women. Maybe you need to grow up and seek out your own kind.
I heard a woman describe the USA
as an eagle. An eagle needs both a left wing and a right wing to fly. I've seen John McCain work with democrats and reach across the aisle. I have not seen that from Barrack Obama. I just do not feel that our country needs someone who is so far to one side and I feel that Barrack Obama is an extreme left kind of guy. We need someone who is more in the middle.
Those words 'hatred' & 'intolerance' describe the
Please describe in detail the racist nature of
the cartoon....if you can.
Mere words cannot describe my feelings to your post....so I won't even try....
Please describe the actual physical threat that you allege was made on this internet chat board.
Thank you.
The 2 issues you describe usually go hand-in-hand.
keep women out of power. The old 'barefoot-and-pregnant' story. As a feminist, I wouldn't vote for a candidate who was against EITHER issue. Being pro-choice has nothing to do with hating babies, etc. Pro-choice has to do with keeping a very personal, private choice just that: Personal & Private, between a woman and her doctor, and no-one else. If a woman hasn't any power over her OWN reproductive system, and whether or not the time is right (if ever) to bear a child, she certainly isn't going to be given much else to be in charge of, either.
The only reason this issue EVER became a hotbed political issue is that the religious fanatics in this country, who have been trying to control the reins of government, picked an issue that was certain to divide people. They took this choice out of the doctor's office and put it in the public eye so that the country could be divided, and in that way 'conquered'. Have to hand it to 'em, some of the campaign tactics, as repugnant as they are, have been pretty slick. Shows they've got some pretty fancy lawyers. The terrorist tactics (threatening, and even sometimes killing) docs who perform TABs; harrassing women entering family-planning clinics; and chasing some family planning clinics out of some towns.
There used to be a clinic a few blocks from my home, and every Friday this looney-tune and his whacked-out buddies would block park a truck with pictures of fetuses on it, and would block an entire sidewalk with their signs, fake babies (dolls), themselves, etc. I guess they think they're scaring people with their pictures & signs, but it only serves to infuriate them. In large part, the attempts to overthrow Roe vs Wade by the religious lunatics of the world is one of the main reasons I stopped voting Republican after Ronald Reagan, and voted Democratic instead.
And then of course there is the issue of our jobs. When that all started going down the toilet (or shall I say - to the Third World) I realized the 'trickle-down effect' I'd been led to believe when I was a Republican in the past was a lie. It doesn't trickle DOWN, the money only gushes UP -- to the ones who already have the most of it.
Pro birth control....s/m
I'm definitely not pro abortion, but am pro choice in, what should be, the rare event of unexpected pregnancy, and in that case I think that the woman herself should be the one to decide whether to terminate the pregnancy or not, and if so, it should remain a safe, and legal option. It's an extremely emotional, and difficult decision for most women to have to make in that situation.. I did a quick look and see that the abortion rate in the US has declined from 1996 to 2002. I'm going to look for statistics from 2002 to the present when I have more time. I think the key in the main is stressing birth control measures, and also making those measures affordable to all women across all socio-economic groups.
Birth control is....
used to prevent pregnancy......not kill an innocent child AFTER it is conceived. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!! How do you people sleep at night?
As far as birth control....I have not seen anything about...
people wanting to remove birth control. Just because an individual elects not to use it does not mean they do not want anyone else to have access. With this permissive society liberals have created there is really no choice but to provide it.
Yes, there are natural causes for miscarriage. That is leaving it up to God. For us to put the life of an innocent child totally in the hands of someone else to choose whether it lives or dies, just as a personal choice, I believe is wrong. Just as those in these orphanges murdered children...it is murder. Killing an innocent for no reason other than "oops" is wrong.
What overturning Roe vs. wade would do is put it back in the hands of legislators who, by the constitution, are the only ones who can enact laws. The Supreme Court should not be enacting laws. They are to interpret...not legislate. I believe it should be overturned because it is unconstitutional. Then put it to a state-by-state vote. Some states would outlaw abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or life of mother. Some would outlaw it, period. Some would allow it in all forms. But at least it would be the will of the people.
Why do you think congress has never tried to pass an abortion law? Even when the democrats had control? Even before Roe vs. Wade? The truth is in the pudding.
birth certificates...
I just pulled out my daughter's birth certificate to look at it after reading a post somewhere below that said that Obama's birth certificate did not have a lot of information on it that birth certificates have (such as weights, name of particular hospital, etc.) and guess what - neither does my daughters. It has the raised seal and is signed by the American consulate of the United States and states that she was born a female in Nuernberg, Bavaria, Germany on (insert date) and that it was recorded on (insert date).
Nowhere does it say what hospital, what time, who the parents are, what the birthweight was, or any of that stuff. This is just an official copy that they gave me and they kept all that other stuff on file.
So, if my daughter is most definitely an American citizen and it is not on her birth certificate - why would Barack Obama's necessarily have to have it? Maybe it was not their custom in Hawaii at the time he WA born to put all that on the birth certificates. So just because it is not there does not make it a fake.
birth certificate
 As in the words of Archie Bunker from "All in the Family" to his TV wife Edith: "Stifle yourself...geeeez".
I assume you were there at his birth?
x
Birth certificatem(sm)
I agree with above. No way would Obama have been elected president if he wasn't a legitimate candidate. Believe me when government employees have to undergo background checks these days, I am sure he was subjected to the same plus more. To me this is just a loud-mouthed, disgruntled black man who probably in his mind thought he was going to be our first black president. Too bad Obama beat him to the punch. 
I think it is just like the birth certificate - it won't go away. nm
x
BTW, there are much better birth control
options than birth control pills. One of them IUDs, when those are in, there is nothing to 'forget' about them.
Not everyone has the same access to birth control. sm
I guess you didn't watch 20/20 this past Friday night? You can view it on their website. Go to http://abcnews.go.com/2020 and click on Watch: Babies in Memphis
I think everyone who is interested in this current thread would find it interesting, whatever your opinion on abortion is. It was called "Babyland" because that's what the locals call the cemetary where all the premature babies who die are buried if their mother can't afford to bury them.
It was about how the poverty-striken areas in Memphis, TN have much greater rates of premature births and deaths of babies than the more affleunt areas. Why? Lots of reasons, but probably the main one is lack of money, which means lack of prenatal care. No insurance and no easy access to a free or low-cost clinic. Lack of education. The girl they profiled was 18 and pregnant, and they showed another girl who had gotten pregnant at 12 yrs old, now a mother at 13. I mean, yeah, a 12 y/o shouldn't be having sex - she's still a child, but how in the world would she have access to birth control? She wouldn't.
It showed how the closest clinic is only open during the day (and only 1/2 day on Sat., to cut costs). No evening or weekend hours, so what are you supposed to do, take time off work, which you can't afford, to go get birth control (or prenatal care, etc.) which you also can't afford? I mean to you or me it may seem like a no-brainer - if nothing else go to the drugstore and get a box of condoms for $10.00, or the Today sponge thingie, but maybe they don't even have an extra $10.00 (or the time and $ to take 2 buses to get to the drugstore?).
All I'm saying is, the situation is different for everyone. I've personally never had an easy time with any method of birth control I've tried, and it's a bit of a wonder to me that I've never had an unplanned pregnancy because of that. Maybe because of that, I try to be less judgmental of others. Oops, more to say but I've got to go...
Birth control would have been nice.
.
I knew about birth control.
However, was I willing to go to my mom and ask her to put me on the pill. I knew my mother would have suspected my sexual activity and I didn't want her to know. Most teens also have the belief that "it won't happen to me." Now that I'm older, I see how some of the decisions I made back when I was 17 were poor ones, but at that time I thought they were great ideas. Do I blame my mom and dad for the bad decisions I made back then....no. Those were my decisions, my choices, and I had to deal with the consequences.
She supports birth control and ..
supports abstinence-only education in schools, but she has also said she does not support tax payer dollars to distribute birth control in schools. She is a member of Feminists for Life, which is an pro-life group.
Feminist for Life is a pro-life group that has had its positions distorted to show that they are against birth control. Palin critics (including many in the media) have cherry picked in order to smear Gov. Palin.
There is no proof. Birth certificate has been
The only proof you have is that you have no legitimate campaign strategy and your candidate's campaign is going down in flames over this relentless stupidity.
Obama birth certificate
I received an e-mail today that has been floating around. Any truth to Obama not releasing his birth certificate to prove he was actually born in this country? Any facts to back this up?
Maybe you still have your original birth certificate...sm
I sure didn't. When I went to get a passport I had to order a copy from the city where I was born. It was a photocopy. All birth certificate copies come with a seal for authenticity. There are no more "originals filed". Everything is computerized or on microfilm.
'vault' birth certificate
Oldtmer - thank you!!
It also mentioned a birth announcement
"Further, a birth announcement in the Aug. 13, 1961, Honolulu Advertiser listed Obama's birth there on Aug. 4."
Now, while that may not be a legal document, I highly doubt that way back on August 4, 1961, Obama's mother decided to state that he was born in Hawaii because some day he might grow up to be president.
There was no legal reason why she would have done that. He would have been considered a citizen, even if he had been born in Kenya. Maybe not natural born, but legal, and she would have had no reason to lie ... way, way, way back then.
Either way, what you're stating is that several INDEPENDENT organizations, including a legal court of America, are lying or covering up the truth FOR Obama.
It's a paranoid accusation to a very high degree, and I think, if nothing else, the campaigns this year have done nothing but heighten these delusions.
On both sides, even.
The Obama birth question may forever live in the annals of conspiracy theory - along with the U.S. moon landing "hoax" and the presence of reptilians who can shapeshift at will - but it would behoove our country to recognize it as an unproductive, divisive conspiracy theory that deserves much less attention than, say, a strong, compassionate, united nation.
"County" of birth, not "count..nm
Birth certificate authentification
Here's a link detailing how Obama's birth certificate has been investigated and why you need to drop this ridiculous charge that he's been perpetuating a lie for years.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
whose insurance does not pay for birth control?
Mine sure as heck does. It is much cheaper to prevent births than pay for them. It makes fiscal sense.
birth certificate nonsense
Personally, I like the way factcheck.org handled this: They went and looked at the birth certificate. Then they went and looked at the birth announcement in the newspaper from 1961. Now, admittedly, it's possible that Obama's disciples FLEW BACK IN TIME to plant the birth announcement so that their Chosen One could ascend to power. I think we do have to consider that option carefully, because it leads us to ask--what if NEXT they GO BACK IN TIME TO CREATE AN OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT-ELECT FOR *EVERY* ELECTION EVER HELD IN THE US????
Obama birth certificate. What you can do.
For those that feel strongly that Obama is ineligible to be the president due to unanswered questions regarding his birth certificate, there is something that you can do about it.
The key here is that you need to be very proactive. Posting about Obama's birth certificate on message boards, in emails and such will not result in him ultimately being unable to serve as president due to this very important issue.
Many here have written extensively about this issue, and seem quite knowlegable regarding the actual facts surrounding his birth certificate, and the fact that he, in reality, is legally disqualifed from serving as president.
The many posters here who are deeply concerned about this issue, need to take thiings a step further than merely posting about this.
Here is what you need to do. Make an appointment to consult with an attorney and state your concerns to said attorney. For a retainer fee the attorney will accept the case on your behalf. Retainer fees are not that high, usually for a case such as this the retainer fee would run a couple of thousand dollars, plus whatever hourly fee the attorney charges. The more people that take this proactive approach, the higher the likelihood that the case will be heard and ultimately Obama would be removed from office due to this birth certificate issue.
In the event that the case is heard and dismissed, the next step is to file an appeal. The retainer fees for an appeal run higher than the initial retainer fee, however again it is not that expensive, with the ballpark figure of approximately $5,000.plus whatever hourly fee your attorney charges, and here again the more people that do this the higher the liklihood of Obama being removed from office due to this so very important issue.
On December 5, 2008, this issue will be addressed by the Supreme Court and likely there will be no furtherance on this. As many of you already know, a federal judge dismissed this very important case, and the Supreme Court is likely to follow suit in this coverup regarding Obama and his birth certificate.
I urge all who post about this so often and feel very strongly about this issue to take action, retain an attorney and follow through with the case to its conclusion. In the end, with your collective efforts and knowlege about the real issues regarding Obama and the birth certificate, you will have prevented, or caused the removal of, a person from serving in the highest office in the nation who, in fact, is not legally qualified to serve in that capacity. In doing this you will have performed the ultimate act of patriotism.
Sometimes in life you have to put your money where your mouth is, and this is one of those times.
Birth certificates in general
No I did not watch the youtube link you posted. That is definitely not a credible source for such an important issue as this. The CERTIFIED copy on Factcheck (and never mind discussing the credibility of Fact check) should be enough, it shows the fold marks and clearly the certification and signature.
Many, many years ago, I worked in a small hospital and in addition to my MT-ing, part of my job was to obtain birth certificate applications from new moms. I know that my birth certificate has the AGE of my parents at my birth, not their birth dates. It also lists the state in which they were born. I do not know what Hawaii requirements for birth certificates are but when it is certified by the STATE I would assume it to be legitimate. The hospital issued "birth certificate" is not and never has been to my knowledge, a legal document.
With the furious campaining done by Hillary and McCain, do you not even stop to think that if they had not been absolutely certain that his birth certificate was legitimate they wouldn't have blown the lid off months and months ago, especially when it became obvious he was likely to win??? Saying otherwise is ridiculous. They had no problem trashing him with Ayers, etc. up until Day Last did they? Anything to try to knock him out of the race. So are you saying they are part of the conspiracy to "cover up" Obama's birth certificate? Come on.....legitimate MTs are more intelligent than that. Since I don't know you, I have no idea if you are an MT or not.
Obama's birth certificate
This issue is irrelevant at this point. Even if it can be proven that he was not born in the US, he has lived here most of his life, had an American mother, has an American wife and American kids, and has served in the US Senate, not to mention the fact that he won the presidential election by a landslide. If you think this issue will prevent Barack Obama from taking office or disqualify him from serving at some point, dream on.
Show us your birth certificate
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=90125
this is an outrage. citizens of this nation have demanded to see his birth records. he answers to us and he refuses to be accountable to us. i think that i should no longer be required to show mine. if he has that right, why don't I?
birth certificae? That's old news,.nm
nm
Exactly! I think Obama campaigned since birth.
nm
Unborn rights until birth...after that, off the radar
nm
i'm appalled that she is anti birth control
into office?!?!
Link to current law regarding foreign birth...sm
to American citizens. http://www.aca.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=80
Can YOU produce your vault birth certificate?
McC camp people are, no wonder their campaign is doing down the drain...and no plumber on the face of the earth is going to be able to plunge it back to life.
No such thing as a "vault" birth certificate...sm
No paper certificates exist in most states any more. All are either on microfilm or computerized. The only hits you get on Google for vault birth certificate are in relation to Obama. Who coined the expression "vault" birth certificate? I sent for a copy of my birth certificate to get a US passport and received a photocopy with a raised seal. This is the standard now for proof of citizenship. There are no longer any birth certificates in "vaults" anymore, all is verified in cyberspace.
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