The prior poster was explaining the church ministries
Posted By: and merely suggesting that....sm on 2008-10-15
In Reply to: God d*mn America is ok then? As long as you have good church programs? (nm) - Is that what prior poster was saying?
those ministries were consistent with Obama's life experiences, his political career and his current campaign platform. Voters like a consistent candidate with a consistent message, a concept that seems to elude many McCain supporters and certainly goes right over the heads of his campaign managers.
The previous poster was implying that perhaps members of the congregation, both past and present, find value and purpose in those ministries and often choose to participate in the church ministries that service their immediate communities and benefit those who are in the most need wherein, according to Matthew's gospel, the Spirit of Jesus dwells. Some of us really like that about Obama and find it admirable that he embodies this decidedly Christian principle and understands that that we all will be judged by the measure of how we treat the least among us.
My best guess is that the previous poster does not necessarily believe that Christian evangelical pastors of any and all colors are exactly void of fanaticism, bigotry and hatred. Rev Wright certainly may have appeal to some members of that congregation whose core beliefs he reflects, just as John Hagee has a certain appeal to some of his congregation. Having said that, there is still no direct evidence that Hagee reflects McCain's core beliefs any more than there is evidence that Wright reflects Obama's...except in the minds of those who are in charge of the hate patrol.
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Trinity Unity Church ministries list inside
Michelle and Barack Obama's association with Trinity Unity church dates back to around 1988 (Obama, age 27) when they were civil right attorneys in Chicago and engaged in voter registration drives in South Chicago. Being young, biracial and a recent graduate from Harvard Law School with international heritage and early life experiences, he was searching for the meaning of black identity in America. It seems like a black church would be a reasonable place for a Christian to take that search. Trinity Unity Church in South Chicago engages in the following ministry programs of common interest to both himself and his wife, who were active in that community at that time.
1. Seniors activities.
2. Adopt-a-student.
3. Economic development and health education in Africa.
4. Sports, career development.
5. Caribbean cultural education.
6. Social justice advocacy.
7. Bible study.
8. Individual, family, group and grief crisis counseling.
9. Children, youth, men and women modern dance, ballet and interpretive dance, including African roots of dance in worship.
10. Domestic violence support services.
11. Drama.
12. Drill teams.
13. Drug and alcohol recovery.
14. Fine arts and literary guild.
15. Food share.
16. Girl Scouts.
17. Health advisory for the prevention of physical and mental illnesses.
18. High school counseling.
19. HIV/AIDs education.
20. Housing seminars, including tax sales, avoiding foreclosure, purchase of HUD homes, finance mortgages.
21. Christian, cultural and social focus groups on "coming into womanhood."
22. Information technology, self determination for the physically, mentally and/or emotionally handicapped.
23. Legal counseling.
24. Marriage counseling.
25. Math tutoring.
26. Instruction in audio, visual, print, photography and telecommunications.
27. Men's groups and fellowship.
28. Development of spiritual, economic, social and political viability of the African American community.
29. Partnership programs across ministries.
30. Messengers of Faith high school choir.
31. Little Warriors for Christ choir for ages 6 years to 8th grade.
32. Men's Chorus.
33. Sanctuary choir for adult men and women.
34. Women's Chorus.
35. Walaika Choir for 3 to 5 year olds.
36. Newness of Life guidance for life's spiritual journey.
37. Prison ministry weekly visits to prisons to provide support for prison families and engage inmates in rap sessions and training programs.
38. Christian role models and mentors for boys and girls of elementary school age.
39. Reading/literacy program.
40. Sign language- Bible studies and other programs for the hearing impaired.
41. Singles groups for never married, divorced, widowed, single parents and same gender.
42. Women's groups.
43. New member orientation and financial aid for members enrolled in seminaries.
44. Tangeni adult dance rehearsals, seminars and retreats.
45. Taped worship services/visitation for members and extended family, who are hospitalized, shut-ins or in extended care facilities.
46. Computer classes.
47. Church usher program, all ages.
48. Women's guild volunteers for nursing home resident visitation.
49. Yoga physical, mental and spiritual fitness.
50. Young adults/teenage groups.
51. Christian character development of cultural and spiritual awareness.
52. Youth Christian education, music, prayers and crafts activities groups. With all this going on, and with the focus the Obamas had on community involvement and civil rights as attorneys, a 20-year membership makes perfect sense. Anyone who would attribute their "association" with this church, its members or its pastor to subversive, militant, Marxist/Socialist over-throw of the government apparently has their own subversive agenda to serve. The good deeds and actions that are manifested in these ministries far overshadow any hateful political smear campaigns, no matter how organized they are or how much hot air they expel.
Working for ministries..
Working for a non-profit ministry is vastly different than working for a for-profit company. I say this, because I work in a ministry. Many ministries have Codes of Conduct. However, it's legally required that you be informed verbally and in writing of these codes of conduct, and then you sign a waiver stating that yes, you can follow those, or no you don't. You have a choice up front. It's a contract, and you can choose to sign and abide or not to sign and walk away.
I have no idea of the standards for the Salvation Army, but I doubt they are as stringent as what you are saying. The rumor mill is an ugly thing. I think we all played pass it down as children, and we know how drastically a statement can be altered when passed down just a minimum of two to three times.
Running from church to church is not the answer...sm
There are problems and controversy in every church. I do not agree with things that go on in my church nor everything that my pastor says or does. I have found that some churches problems are greater than the ones in your own church, so some times you have to be still.
Here's one for ya....Me along with plenty of other Americans don't agree with what our current President Bush has done in terms of running our country, starting a war, making history by putting every state in this country in a negative deficit, and I could continue to go on, but the point is even in our disagreement with him, we have not jumped up and ran to another country and we wonder why; running is not the answer. First off it is not our place to condemn one, but since someone is being condemned for what was said, condemn the Rev. Wright, not Obama.
Thank you for explaining that...
Wondered how it passed the Democrats! Thought it was some kind of conspiracy on both sides, which would be a disaster. He wants this to stay as part of "law of the land" which is a terrific fear for everyone who loves real "freedom" and not the Bush type of "freedom spread around the world" LOL! Give me plain old freedom here in the United States. If Iraq, or any other sovereign nation, wants freedom, they should fight for it themselves, or at least ASK to let us bomb them....I'm sorry, that's my sense of humor...:) terrible, terrible.
Thanks for explaining it to me..... sm
I can see I may have upset you and I didn't mean to. Your opinion is your own, of course, but I would disagree with when an embryo starts to live. Being "radically pro-life" as I said I was, I naturally believe that a baby is a baby at conception. But that's just my belief. The truth of the matter is that the heart starts to beat at around the 21st day from conception, so with a beating heart, would that not be considered a living person?
There really is no need to answer me because I don't want to get into a battle over when life begins because our view points are so vastly different and feelings could be hurt. Thank you for sharing your point of view with me. It does help me understand the different mindsets as they relate to abortion.
Looks like you do not want to take a stab at explaining
Buffet and Soros manipulated the entire economic picture all by their lonesome. If all you want to do is cram more socialist rhetoric into the dialog, then it is a waste of time to address it....especially since it is coming from a faction of votes who do not have the foggiest notion of the meaning of the term, much less the historical structure of their own tax system. BTDT.
Sm does not need your help explaining her motives.
x
Google has an official explaining for it.
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2005/09/googlebombing-failure.html
Don't waste your breath explaining it to them
They will only interpret everything you say as bashing. All logic is lost on some people.
Obama was explaining to his fundraisers
why PA et. al. were not showing their support for him, going for Hilary, and he told them the truth. I am from PA, and people around here are bitter that their jobs are outsourced and having financial problems. The importance of his statement is that he was/is exactly right, and he does have his finger on the pulse of the people and does relate to common folks. That's the point of "cling to their guns and religion." He was not being condescending or demeaning, just trying to explain to his fundraisers why he was not doing so well in PA.
As for writing two books "before he accomplished anything," seems to me you are bitter and cling to your religion and guns. What the h--- is wrong with writing books, with being intelligent? Is being intelligent and able to write two books a curse? Give me a break with the phony accusations.
It doesnt work. Link explaining some things.
nm
Read prior messages...
Messages seem to say prepared = gun ownership/usage
My point is that prior presidents have had their day..sm
and time when they were covered in mud and IMHO none of it is right, except to say in most cases the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
But, to answer Jeb's and Bush's family mishaps with the what about the Kennedy's line is dodging the point to me.
Bringing up the Lynch and Dean ordeal that's something worth listening to, but you guys just can't let go of old democratic presidents. It's like a thorn still sticking in your side. Everytime something comes up with Bush, you talk about Clinton, or even the Kennedy's, as if that dismisses Bush somehow. Whatever gets you though.
healthcare a problem prior to THIS war and they did
x
Re: "associations" -- you never answered a prior
Jes' curious............
To answer this I would only repeat my prior statements..nm
Re: "Closing Time" - Was cut off in prior post; please see this one.
This didn't come through very well in my other post. I'm hoping it's better in this one. Sorry. 
Closing Time
Jim Kirwan
12-10-8
Since Reagan we've been trying to make "Trickle-Down economics" work: For those to whom promises were made, Trickle- Down has been, not just a failure but it has been the major vehicle responsible for the most massive redistribution of wealth, from the population that has worked toward something, to those that wanted everything. Never has there been such a near total transfer of wealth in the history of the planet. This criminal-conspiracy has done what it was created to do and it must be terminated with extreme prejudice, immediately, if we are to survive.
When 'Trickle-Down' was the political-priority of the day, the high-point in prosperity was to become a 'Millionaire.' Forbes magazine tracked those lucky few very carefully. Today Forbes 500 no longer bothers with 'millionaires' because there are just far too many of them-they have become inconsequential. Thanks to "Trickle-Down economics today the heavy-hitters financially are 'Billionaires' and above: which is all you need to know about how well this hostile-takeover of the American economy has worked.
The problem that this transfer of wealth has created has resulted in the Federalization-of-Privatization: As a result we are all facing another huge round of trickle-down economics, but this time it's being cloaked in a series of stealth-protected measures. These new tactics are commonly called BAILOUT or RESCUE packages, and nothing about their origins or their purposes has been made clear to those of us that will be forced to pay tens of trillions for our own destruction.
What's happening is this: First they used compromised laws to squash diversity and opinion within the entire field of communications, under Clinton and Powell's kid that ran the FCC. Together, competition was eliminated and monstrous empires were created that absorbed their competition outright. Once this happened, the entire edifice for total information management was in-place, using household names to lie to the public every minute of every day, whether on television or in print-with very few exceptions. With that completed effort it was easy to move directly onto the openly fascist path to WAR on a variety of fronts, supported and applauded by the very organs that were supposed to question whatever government does, on behalf of the people, as part of their constitutionally protected-jobs as so-called journalists. With the constitution gone, and the only allegiance worthy of that name having become the private for-profit motives that greed and arrogance breeds; in the sewers of those ruined lives where these so-called leaders "live," the current outcome is all that we should have ever expected from these new-age barbarians. (1)
We're still in the Twilight Zone; where Obama is just another man waiting to start a job, except that he seemingly can't wait to begin so he formulates their plans and then rushes to the nearest podium to expound upon the glories of what these programs (or pogroms) are pointedly designed to do; for them and 'to' us. And the sheep wait patiently to board the trains that will take them to the slaughterhouse.
The larger picture has or course remained hidden from the general public. What continues to go unnoticed is the number of profligate cities and towns, not to mention states that will have to be bailed out by the feds. Once this begins to happen, 'the rights' of states will disappear completely along with any independence from the federal-government. Remember the formula upon which bailouts are based: The crucial money provided is conditioned upon a federal "ownership stake" in everything that needs the money, and when this is applied to the states then all they have left to trade with is their broken-economies and their people who shall both become the property of the federal government that is today a private-corporation that serves only the privately-owned central banks and by extension the multi-national corporations. This is about to happen now to several states, including California; the sixth largest economy in the world. (2)
'BTW the "corporation" mentioned above has been bankrupt since 1933, and the result of that bankruptcy is that the USA went into receivership to the privately-owned Federal Reserve. The Dictator was correct when he said: "The constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper," he was actually telling the truth. It was probably the only truthful statement he ever made in nearly eight years.
The owners have simply allowed us to believe we have a constitution. Every law, code and statute world wide is based on the Uniform Commercial Code and has been in place since 1950. Of course no one in a position of power ever bothered to mention this to us did they? One must understand the UCC to understand how and why so many have gotten away with so much: And now they are upping the ante, to take it all.'
This explains why every courtroom and every government building has flags hanging that really are not American flags even though they appear to be. Each of them has gold/yellow fringe around them. They give us smoke and mirrors that mask what they created, which allows them to continue to say 'we have a constitution and a democracy.' Of course America was created to be a constitutional republic, not a democracy. There is a huge difference between a democracy and a constitutional republic. The rights of the few and the many, can only be protected under a Republic, while under a democracy, the majority rules-absolutely.
There are however a few places that are still holding out against the one-world-order and the New Barbarians. Among these are Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, possibly Iran and certainly Greece.
"Socialist leader George Papandreou called for early elections, saying the conservative government could no longer defend the public from rioters.
The government has a single-seat majority in the 300-member Parliament and opposition parties blame hands-off policing for encouraging the worst rioting the country has seen in decades.
'The government cannot handle this crisis and has lost the trust of the Greek people,' Papandreou said. 'The best thing it can do is resign and let the people find a solution ... we will protect the public.'" (3)
If America is to survive then we must stop this wholesale giveaway of everything that was once part of this society. The relationship between profits and earnings must be freed from the stranglehold that management has created in order to siphon off all the profits and wreck the companies they work for. In addition, the idea that government can function in any capacity as a major stakeholder in any form of private enterprise beggars the imagination far beyond any real possibility for saving anything; except the criminals and their enterprises that created this "crisis" in the first place. The 'economy' must be based on a bottom-up profit motive, based on the real wages of those that create the wealth for those at the top - and not upon the insanity that it is now! People must come first, and the corporations must be controlled at every level by the public!
There is no longer anything like responsibility anywhere in government or the private sector to anything except what can continue to be stolen, either by flawed and fraudulent bailouts, or through the strong-arm tactics that are currently acting "under- cover of law" and that are neither legal nor functional. Obama in this venue is neither a savior, nor a friend to the people that supposedly 'elected' him-he is just the instrument of the new global-government engine designed to finish the job and to close down this nation, once and for all! Americans need to watch what happens in Greece and follow their example, if there is to be an America to fight over in the future.
In the meanwhile, here is some of what's happened here already.
"With the focus on privatization, public-private partnerships, (dismantling local control); anyone with any common sense about them can see that; incrementally the power of the people is being given over to corporate control through various venues. Once upon a time we were subjects, then citizens, and now consumers. Everything is for sale. TV 'programming' is set up to entice "consumers" through the 3000 daily ads to buy, buy, buy! Utilities-waste- nursing homes, and even the people's water (once in local control) is open to the highest bidder or those with the most influence. In "public private partnerships or privatization" (despite the lofty high pitch sales rhetoric) means only one thing, a plundering of the people's money. Profits take precedence over any and all health or environmental concerns. It's pigs at the trough time, locally- state wise and nationally. This is not just happening in one or two isolated places but across the nation. Because we are narrowly focused (many times only one newspaper) parochially; we have little to no idea of the larger picture and what is being set in place.
As I read of various happenings across the nation; I am struck with the usage of terms and language being introduced into the public arena; with no explanation as to their meaning (if any). I asked a state politician a few years back what this terminology we're hearing lately of, "regional or regionalization" meant? He brushed the whole thing aside as inconsequential and told me that is was of no importance. Obviously, for me, that was an unsatisfactory answer. Most especially, since on the local level, I could see that it meant a great deal. It appeared to me, that ever so insidiously, local control was gradually being usurped by "regional" control of unelected officials. Consultants (strangers) were replacing local people in places of city government (at lucrative salaries). The sense of community (calling city hall etc.) was being replaced by various business entities, having little to no attachment to the heartbeat of the people. How could they, being strangers, with no sense of native pride or concern? Words like "regional, stake holder, empowerment zones, enterprise committees, visioning councils, smart growth, sustainable development etc;" had replaced understandable language! I didn't imagine that the usage of these terms across the nation (if you look) meant "nothing"." (4)
It's 'Closing Time' America, because unless you begin to do more than just watch, this place won't even be a footnote to the ruin that is planned for these people and this place that once held so much promise for everyone.
kirwanstudios@sbcglobal.net |
A search warrant under FISA prior to 9/11
As you can see from the article cited below, Holder did not have that evidence. He was not the only person responsible for "not allowing" the laptop contents search. Seems there was a problem with intelligence sharing between the US and France. His decision was also defended by the FBI director. Unless being able to predict the future is a qualification for the AG, it seems that you could find a better reason to be losing sleep.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/08/60II/main508362.shtml
Prior military wife myself - know how it works -
x
Perhaps you would prefer the "original" I got prior to my editing.....
The Little Red Hen called all of her Democrat neighbors together and said, 'If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to eat. Who will help me plant it?'
'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen, and so she did. The wheat grew very tall and ripened into golden grain.
'Who will help me reap my wheat?' asked the little red hen.
'Out of my classification,' said the pig.
'I'd lose my seniority,' said the cow.
'I'd lose my unemployment compensation,' said the goose.
'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen, and so she did.
At last it came time to bake the bread.
'Who will help me bake the bread?' asked the little red hen.
'That would be overtime for me,' said the cow.
'I'd lose my welfare benefits,' said the duck.
'I'm a dropout and never learned how,' said the pig.
'If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination,' said the goose.
'Then I will do it by myself,' said the little red hen.
She baked five loaves and held them up for all of her neighbors to see. They wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little red hen said, 'No, I shall eat all five loaves.'
'Excess profits!' cried the cow. (Nancy Pelosi)
'Capitalist leech!' screamed the duck. (Barbara Boxer)
'I demand equal rights!' yelled the goose. (Jesse Jackson)
The pig just grunted in disdain. (Ted Kennedy)
And they all painted 'Unfair!' picket signs and marched around and around the little red hen, shouting obscenities.
Then the farmer (Obama) came. He said to the little red hen, 'You must not be so greedy.'
'But I earned the bread,' said the little red hen.
'Exactly,' said Barack the farmer. 'That is what makes our free enterprise system so wonderful. Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our modern government regulations, the productive workers must divide the fruits of their labor with those who are lazy and idle.'
And they all lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who smiled and clucked, 'I am grateful, for now I truly understand.'
But her neighbors became quite disappointed in her. She never again baked bread because she joined the 'party' and got her bread free. And all the Democrats smiled. 'Fairness' had been established.
Individual initiative had died, but nobody noticed; perhaps no one cared...so long as there was free bread that 'the rich' were paying for.
Bill Clinton is getting $12 million for his memoirs.
Hillary got $8 million for hers.
That's $20 million for the memories from two people, who for eight years, repeatedly testified, under oath, that they couldn't remember anything.
IS THIS A GREAT BARNYARD OR WHAT?
Judging by some of the prior town meetings
1. Gimme a house.
2. Make my boss pay me more (than I'm worth).
3. Gimme.
4. Gimme.
5. Fix everything for me.
This is more the behavior of subjects toward a monarch than citizens toward a president. Thanks, think I'll just stay home and improve my own life.
In a prior post I made the following offer:
.....no amount of money would induce me to volunteer to be tortured (you know, beaten cut, burned - severe pain or harm). But cut me a check (certified only, please) with a number followed by a whole lot of zeros and I would be waterboarded (strictly in the interest of science). Our special forces are trained to withstand this and other 'harsh' interrigation techniques...... It's scary and unpleasant but way different from having your fingernails pulled out or a field generator and alligator clips used.
I had in mind more like $500,000, but yeah, for enough money I would certainly consider that an offer I couldn't refuse.
compared to the prior president anyone is a great orator
Listening to one of his speeches is a breath of fresh air compared to listening to Bush.....I'm betting O will make less speaking mistakes in his entire presidency than Bush made in any one given month during his.
Please review the Iraq Liberation Act and the speech given by clinton in 1988 explaining why he bomb
Operation Desert Fox. Bush, nor conservatives, were the first to call for regime change in Iraq. Clinton signed in a LAW calling for just that. I posted the act below. Both sides have called for regime change, only one side made it a law...that would be yours. Can we move on to another subject now?
that church is concerning to me
it SHOULD be concerning to everyone.
This is why I don't go to church
Is this what is going on in the churchs now? Fear tactics that we are all doomed to he**? Our society is morally based. Go walk around the Middle East for a day and you will appreciate just how moral we are. The public schools aren't there to raise our children and at least they can go to school. You don't have to put your child in the public school system, that is also the beauty of choice in our country. Try having your child dodge bombs instead or be taught to strap bombs to themselves and die in the name of God. I'll take the science class any day over that. You can teach your children to have faith and to read books based on opinions and science. We aren't stupid, we can make our own decisions. I love the fact that my son can argue all points of view. He was taught evolution, so what? He is smart enough to make his own decision, just like you! All opinions should be presented to grow and learn. If there was only one point of view, how would we know how to chose?
If he didn't go to church, then what would you say?
He can't win; if he goes he's wrong, if he doesn't what? The fact remains: Clinton lied, nobody died. Bush lied and 3 YEARS, billions of dollars later, 2300+ died...and yet we're being told how much **progress** is being made. Get over Clinton and wake up!
Yes, and The Persecuted Church
While persecution is not exclusionary to one set of beliefs at the present time Christians are the most persecuted people in the world especially in the Arab world and in communistic countries such as China and dictatorial countries like Iran and North Korea.
persecutedchurch.org
obama's church
OBAMA'S CHURCH
Subject: TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST
During this campaign for the Presidency, It's interesting that so much had been made of Mitt Romney's Mormom religion, while we heard/hear so little of Barack Obama's, outside of the denials of his being Muslim.
However, if you look more closely at Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's church, it sounds more like a racist cult than anything else, with a committment, not to America, but to Africa. Scary, when you consider this man could be the President of this United States.
Please go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned. Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K! Whites attend, I have also read, but are not members. Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing. This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa! It is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary. This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to:
www.tucc.org/about.htm
and then I saw/heard him speak yesterday and only see young white people always arround him....where are these black folks who are supporting him? The whites on TV clamoring around him far outweigh the number of blacks ALL the time that I see, I do not get that....it should be mixed in my mind wherever he speaks/goes to.
I am not a racist so please do not attack me.....
Catholic Church
Nancy Pelosi's big mouth is the last problem the Obama campaign wanted to contend with.
In its newly ratified platform, the Democratic Party reinvigorates its commitment to abortion.
This time Nancy Pelosi has truly gone too far -- which isn't good news for Joe Biden either.
Found at spectator.org. Other info at wnd.com
The Church Lady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wj4tJICcc
If you go to church, has your pastor done this?
WEST BEND, Wis. (AP) - Thirty-three pastors in 22 states used their sermons to make pointed recommendations about political candidates today.
The effort was orchestrated by the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund.
The conservative legal group plans to send copies of the pastors' sermons to the Internal Revenue Service with hope of setting off a legal fight and abolishing restrictions on church involvement in politics.
Critics call it unnecessary, divisive and unlikely to succeed.
The Reverend Eric Williams of Columbus has organized 55 religious leaders across the nation to file a complaint about the ADF's challenge.
The minister with the liberal United Church of Christ says churches should stand apart from the government.
I am surprised! You went to Church?....
.
you have never been to my sister's church
and she is not going to look for a different one either. You don't speak for God and neither do they.
These churches have their own agendas. Anybody can be brainwashed if they do not question authority.
But did he attend church
There is a difference you know. One can claim to be a member of a church and never set foot in it. Perhaps this is how he did it.
Because there's more than one church, one viewpoint?
Until we all think and behave exactly like them, some Christians won't feel they got their way?
And Reps want the church to tell me what to do.
nm
What is the reason for church
I don't go to church either. There is a church on every corner in my town and yet I don't know any of my neighbors? The only time a neighbor knocks on my door is when they are trying to convert me. What about all the kids who can only eat when they go to school? What about when someone gets their electric bill shut off in the winter? Can't the church help that person out? Or is it more important to fund the Sunday Pot Luck, Mens Camp or build a new wing - great use of tithing! What about the child who is being abused right under our nose? What is the church for and who do they care about? Members only? A church on every corner and yet my city is crumbling. Self-rightous do-gooders who don't do much and then complain if the government has to step in and help out. Judgemental people who can't see what is right next door. Stupid projects like sending red envelopes. I'm sure you will be blessed 10-fold for that one. I am Pro-choice and I am a foster parent who is trying to improve a real life and I don't believe in going to modern day churches filled with people who are more concerned about what the rest of the world is doing wrong. I can't be concerned with that because I do enough wrong on my own. So this weekend, while your sitting around feeling so self-rightous, go talk to a perfect stranger and ask how they are doing. You will be amazed at the difference you can make in a life when it isn't Sunday morning at church.
If a church - see message
doesn't want to hire you based on whether you were married in the church - well you probably don't want to work there in the first place.
I was married in the town hall by the Mayor of one of the cities in Denmark. Would they not consider that a marriage?
My belief is marriage is marriage. Call it what you want, it's still marriage. Two people love each other they should be able to be married no matter what gender, race, or anything. Calling it something else is discrimination - plane and simple.
Obama was a member of a church ...
where God Dam* America was preached. And it was in 1994 either. HE taught Saul Alinsky's methods. Saul's son said Obama learned his father's lessons well. I'll say. Already wanting to employ redistribution of wealth. That is a threat NOW.
The Church of the Self-Righteous Has Spoken
I don't care what anyone believes or practices - freedom of religion
It's the freaks who think THEIR religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion who scare me.
Even Jesus was a liberal.
Since I believe in SEPARATION of church & state,
Save it for Sundays in church, Sarah!
Religious people go to church
Religious people who go to work check their religion at the door. The constitution specifically instructs Congress to do the same. "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This means keep religion out of federal legislative codes. Implied therein is the concept that the nation is not theocratic in nature.
The original poster is well understood in the expressed wish that this not be forgotten and remain unchanged. It is difficult to understand what is meant by the statement that religion will be in the White House under any leadership. Clearly, religious people, some to a greater degree than others, will inhabit the White House and the chambers of Congress. However, religion is constitutionally prohibited from entering the body of our laws and does not provide a foundation for our governmental institutions. The constitution has given indivuals immunity from federally mandates on religion. Wise men of great vision, our forefathers.
As the SNL church-lady would say, "Well now...
Not.
I went to a very moderate Baptist church as a ....sm
child and teenager, and no drinking alcohol or dancing was allowed whatsoever.
Separation of church and state.......... sm
is actually not described in the Constitution in the manner in which it is interpreted today. The First Amendment actually reads, in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." One of the reasons America came to be was to flee government-instituted religion such as in England. It was more to keep government out of religion than the other way around. Today, however, it has come to be interpreted, especially by those who would eschew religion in all manners, as religion should be kept out of the government.
The phrase "separation of church and state" is more accurately traced to a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Dansbury Baptists, a religious minority in Connecticut who were concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist Church there. They were concerned that the Congregationalists would "take over" the religion in much the same manner that the Church of England had taken over in England. He wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." In other words, Jefferson was assuring the Dansbury Baptists that their religion would be safe from any government-imposed religion and that they would be free to worship and express their religious beliefs. It says nothing about constricting their religion to their churches and their homes.
Maybe this is one of the things that Obama would relate to his belief that the Constitution is a "living document" as opposed to a static document. Who knows?
and a Bible study is not a church either sm
There is a difference. Its about CHRISTIAN persecution!
IRS to Church: Support Iraq War or Lose Your
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,592419,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Antiwar Sermon Brings IRS Warning
All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena risks losing its tax-exempt status because of a former rector's remarks in 2004.
By Patricia Ward Biederman and Jason Felch
Times Staff Writers
November 7, 2005
The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election.
Rector J. Edwin Bacon of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena told many congregants during morning services Sunday that a guest sermon by the church's former rector, the Rev. George F. Regas, on Oct. 31, 2004, had prompted a letter from the IRS.
In his sermon, Regas, who from the pulpit opposed both the Vietnam War and 1991's Gulf War, imagined Jesus participating in a political debate with then-candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry. Regas said that good people of profound faith could vote for either man, and did not tell parishioners whom to support.
But he criticized the war in Iraq, saying that Jesus would have told Bush, Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.
On June 9, the church received a letter from the IRS stating that a reasonable belief exists that you may not be tax-exempt as a church … The federal tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from intervening in political campaigns and elections.
The letter went on to say that our concerns are based on a Nov. 1, 2004, newspaper article in the Los Angeles Times and a sermon presented at the All Saints Church discussed in the article.
The IRS cited The Times story's description of the sermon as a searing indictment of the Bush administration's policies in Iraq and noted that the sermon described tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.
As Bacon spoke, 1984 Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a co-celebrant of Sunday's Requiem Eucharist, looked on.
We are so careful at our church never to endorse a candidate, Bacon said in a later interview.
One of the strongest sermons I've ever given was against President Clinton's fraying of the social safety net.
Telephone calls to IRS officials in Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles were not returned.
On a day when churches throughout California took stands on both sides of Proposition 73, which would bar abortions for minors unless parents are notified, some at All Saints feared the politically active church had been singled out.
I think obviously we were a bit shocked and dismayed, said Bob Long, senior warden for the church's oversight board. We felt somewhat targeted.
Bacon said the church had retained the services of a Washington law firm with expertise in tax-exempt organizations.
And he told the congregation: It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts.
After the initial inquiry, the church provided the IRS with a copy of all literature given out before the election and copies of its policies, Bacon said.
But the IRS recently informed the church that it was not satisfied by those materials, and would proceed with a formal examination. Soon after that, church officials decided to inform the congregation about the dispute.
In an October letter to the IRS, Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said, It seems ludicrous to suggest that a pastor cannot preach about the value of promoting peace simply because the nation happens to be at war during an election season.
Owens said that an IRS audit team had recently offered the church a settlement during a face-to-face meeting.
They said if there was a confession of wrongdoing, they would not proceed to the exam stage. They would be willing not to revoke tax-exempt status if the church admitted intervening in an election.
The church declined the offer.
Long said Bacon is fond of saying it's a sin not to vote, but has never told anyone how to vote. We don't do that. We preach to people how to vote their values, the biblical principles.
Regas, who was rector of All Saints from 1967 to 1995, said in an interview that he was surprised by the IRS action and then I became suspicious, suspicious that they were going after a progressive church person.
Regas helped the current church leadership collect information for the IRS on his sermon and the church's policies on involvement in political campaigns.
Some congregants were upset that a sermon citing Jesus Christ's championing of peace and the poor was the occasion for an IRS probe.
I'm appalled, said 70-year-old Anne Thompson of Altadena, a professional singer who also makes vestments for the church.
In a government that leans so heavily on religious values, that they would pull a stunt like this, it makes me heartsick.
Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank, questioned whether the 3,500-member church would be under scrutiny if it were not known for its activism and its liberal stands on social issues.
The question is, is it politically motivated? he said. That's the underlying feeling of everyone here. I don't have enough information to make a decision, but there's a suspicion.
Bacon revealed the IRS investigation at both morning services. Until his announcement, the mood of the congregation had been solemn because the services remembered, by name, those associated with the church who had died since last All Saints Day.
Regas' 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush's positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons.
In the sermon, Regas said, President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.'
Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.
If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, Why is so little mentioned about the poor?''
In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I'm not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child.
When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.
Owens, the tax attorney, said he was surprised that the IRS is pursuing the case despite explicit statements by Regas that he was not trying to influence the congregation's vote.
I doubt it's politically motivated, Owens said. I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are.
According to Owens, six years ago the IRS used to send about 20 such letters to churches a year. That number has increased sharply because of the agency's recent delegation of audit authority to agents on the front lines, he said.
He knew of two other churches, both critical of government policies, that had received similar letters, Owens said.
It's unclear how often the IRS raises questions about the tax-exempt status of churches.
While such action is rare, the IRS has at least once revoked the charitable designation of a church.
Shortly before the 1992 presidential election, a church in Binghamton, N.Y., ran advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy, and the tax agency ruled that the congregation could not retain its tax-exempt status because it had intervened in an election.
Bacon said he thought the IRS would eventually drop its case against All Saints.
It is a social action church, but not a politically partisan church, he said.
Obama was a member of a church whose pastor said...
"God damm* America." Obama went to that church for 20 years.
Palin's husband was a member of the Alaskan Independence party several years ago, and this quote came from the head of the party.
I see absolutely NO difference. If you are going to condemn one, condemn both.
Keep it in church - it doesn't belong in government.
their unwavering belief, Christians are NOT the center-of-the-Universe.
small message, church lady...
The most significant thing to me in the entire video is "Vote your conscience." That speaks volumes.
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