The major difference between Christians and...
Posted By: sam on 2008-09-09
In Reply to: BINGO... that's why the rabid Religious Right does - NOT belong in the White House.
radical Islam is free choice...it is your choice whether or not to accept Christ...we do not chop off heads. THAT is my way or the highway.
Complete Discussion Below:  marks the location of current message within thread
The messages you are viewing
are archived/old.
To view latest messages and participate in discussions, select
the boards given in left menu
Other related messages found in our database
It sure does, rightly so; here is the major difference I am seeing....sm
Those of us with the temerity to criticize the Bush years and doctrine are met with blind, sickening loyalty, more total denial than a stadium full of junkies, and this is after watching the last 8 years!....Now a new man comes in, yes young, yes not as experienced as I personally wanted, but with new ideas, because all the past doctrines were so tragic and poisonous to the country, and BEFORE HE EVEN TAKES OFFICE or can even get ANYTHING off the ground, he is being criticized and maligned daily here.....heck, many people here have magic crystals balls and keep telling us to watch the doomsday that is about to happen. Now, a wise person can learn from the past, but how can you not call it blind partisanship when Pubs here just keep singing the praises of King George II and dooming the new President and his entire FUTURE legacy?
Hon, I'm a political major and history major...
xx
george will a major, major
conservative with vast influence for years and years. Can't minimize this devastating blow no matter how much you try to defect subject to joe biden.
Wellthe Klan might thing their Christians but real Christians don't consider them that sm
They are a radical group calling themselves Christians, like AL Queda calls themselves Muslim.
No not Christians, just far right wing radical Christians who,,,sm
believe that God speaks directly only to them and do not welcome anyone who does not have their beliefs.
we have had 4 major
catastrophes in the last 8 years due to republican/conservative ideology of little to no government. 911, katrina, iraq war, wall street collapse, etc. We have serious issues to deal with now. Symbols can wait for the return of the good times under democratic LEADERSHIP.
Yes, there will be major job losses now /NM
N/M
Not skirting the major issues
It is just that our major issues differ immensely.
1. I did read the article, and many more besides. I did not state implicitly that we should model our healthcare system identical to France or Canada, it was only meant to represent that healthcare reform can work, that it is needed in this country, and that for the average individual to start seriously looking at it. There are great programs out there and there is absolutely no reason why we cannot take the best of them and create a whole new better system.
2. Yes, there will be some physicians who do not like the change, just as there will be citizens who do not like the change. However, stating that they will not be willing to take a pay cut for the greater good of their patients is very narrow minded. I helped recruit them to work in academic medicine and the VA system and never had a shortage of as you put it "the most brilliant minds of medicine" applying for those positions when they could have very easily went into the private sector for more money. Furthermore, stating that if there were free tuition based medical schools, that the quality of our physicians would go down is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. I cannot begin to fathom that line of thinking. In those countries where tuition is either free based or fully reimbursed are creating a large percentage of "the most brilliant minds of medicine".
3. I never stated that socialized healthcare is not fraught with problems. Our healthcare system is fraught with just as many. You cannot argue the statistics that in those countries where there is socialized healthcare, the citizens themselves are satisfied with it. I believe the latest statistics are 78% of French citizens are satisified. Granted there are issues on the table now in France, but many are stating that is because there is a creeping privatisation that is to be blamed. My relatives in Montreal have no complaints, and they are the average middle class citizens. And there is a very small percentage who are falling through the cracks compared to much more of your fellow Americans who are falling through our cracks.
5. Insurance companies are driving are healthcare whether you chose to believe it or not. Right now all across the United States there are insurance representatives walking the halls, looking through your patient records, deciding on the spot whether it is feasible for you to receive certain treatment or to stay an extra day, in which your physician will have to argue to ensure that you, the patient, is receiving the best care that he/she feels you deserve. But because the money is not coming out of your pocket, who is to care right?
6. And last but not least, to make the leap that socialized medicine will lead to socialized government is ludicrous. All I can say is what?
One major question for you about your post...sm
Where is the $250M that O wants to put out coming from? and the $500 he plans to give away?? Oh, I know...he'll just have the Treasury print more money. You need to seriously read more than Wikipedia. Try the IRS filings for starters. If O is elected, we are in for an even more slippery slope for our government.
Not just my job, DH is the major earner. We shouldn't be.
penalized for working hard.
obama is ahead in all major
polls. Sympathy not required.
You will be glad they are there if we have a major attack...
like a gas attack, a major bombing, dirty bomb, etc. They are trained to handle that situation. The National Guard is not...hence what happened at Kent State. If you would prefer, lobby your congress to have your national guard trained to do this RATHER than the army. Did you ever stop and think this is yet another deterrent to any terrorists who might think about attacking us again? They have faced our military and our military put them on the run. I think it is a great idea. The army are not a bunch drooling bully wingnuts out to strip your civil liberties. They are trying to PROTECT your rights and your physical personf or that matter. They are invested in protecting this nation. they are better equipped to do that than the national guard is.
Right. Isn't his what major Bloomberg in New York was doing?
And now he is running for his 3rd term!
Is also against the Constitution.
Right. Isn't his what major Bloomberg in New York was doing?
And now he is running for his 3rd term!
It was reported on all the major news
All I have do to know what will be posted on this form is watch Fox commentators and read a few conservative websites. All some of you do is regurgitate the half-truths and out-right lies spoon fed to you by people with an agenda. Think for yourselves once in a while.
34 major scandals during bush's first term
34 Major Scandals during Bush's first term:
Again, you are skirting the major issues and the cost...
did you read all the France article? Their physicians make two-thirds less than ours...and why? Because there is no medical school tuition in France. Can you imagine what would happen to this country's quality of care if you made medical schools no tuition? Can you see Cornell Medical School, Harvard Medical School to name just two, schools who graduate the most brilliant minds in medicine...going to a no-tuition basis? How are they going to be able to train physicians with only government doled-out money to support them? The quality of physician in this country, followed rapidly by the quality of care would tank. If you come from academic medicine, ask those physicians how they feel about no tuition medical school and having their fees capped. Go ahead and ask them.
Our own socialized care is substandard. Articles every day about VA Hospitals and the deplorable conditions in many of them. Veterans having to wait weeks and months for appointments, etc. I know. I have seen the system at work. The government cannot oversee the socialized programs they have now. Medicare and Medicaid are both rife with waste and fraud. We all know this. Because the government cannot oversee them the way they should. And you want to extend this to every person in the US? Look at this reality-based. It is a fiasco in the making.
I am sure the Canadians and the UK thought it would be wonderful too. In the first months it may have been. However, things get skewed when the cost starts to catch up. That is when you end up with a population having over HALF their income taken off the top in taxes to feed the fatted calf. You will note that the article said France was considering taxing both earned and unearned income to feed THEIR calf. When that happens, ask the French how they feel about socialized medicine.
I don't know where you get that healthcare costs are driven by insurance companies. That is nuts. They don't set the fees doctors, clinics, drug companies, yada yada, charge. In fact, it was some of the organized insurance companies, like HMOs, who went to clinics, physicians, etc., to negotiate deals for their consumers...so that those clinics would accept a certain rate for their services. The clinics would agree to less than their normal fees in order to get the business of that HMO. That is the free market WORKING. The clinic I go to for my care, when I get a bill, the insurance company shows what they charged, what they paid, and in nice bold letters at the bottom it says that I am not responsible for the difference because the clinic agreed to that amount for that service, regardless of what their normal charge is.
So, yes, in a way insurance companies do drive health care...but in a good way in my case, and I am sure in other cases across this country, if people would just open their eyes and look.
What this appears to be, on the face of it, is that people just do not want to pay for their own insurance, they want to turn it into yet another entitlement...the biggest one ever. If they want to let the government control them to that extent...more power to them. These same people who want to give up their personal right to control their own health care are the same people that complain about civil liberties and wiretapping. Don't tap my phone, but go ahead and take my health care completely out of my hands as long as you pay for it I don't have to.
No thanks. I do not want to be tied to the government for my health care and I do not want them making my decisions for me. One thing leads to another and before long the government (or more specifically, the Democrats) have you tied to them for your every need. Then, my friends, they have you. You will be living in a socialist country. And if that looks good to you...look at Venezuela. Look at the disparity there between those in power and the "people." Look at Cuba. Look at what socialist Germany turned into before World War II. Please look at history, folks. Socialism always evolves into a dictatorship. Always. Because once they have you dependent upon them for your every need...all I am saying is be careful what you ask for.
I've got some major gas here - everyone stand back.
x
Where should president be while major US city drowns?
nm
She has a major superiority complex, doesn't she?
Pathetic, actually.
NO! Major corporate & CEO greed & mismanagement
Same thing happened to Mervyn's Dept. Stores... greedy big company bought them up, then ran them into the ground. They were great stores, too.
No tears shed here for the corporate shake-outs going on in many industries: Auto, financial, stock market, power, etc. I just hope they eventually grab the HEALTH CARE industry by the scruff of the neck and give it a good shaking, as well. NO PITY HERE.
I think a major issue people ignore...(sm)
is why we are a target of terrorism. US policies towards the middle east thus far have been nothing less than selfish. What US news doesn't tell you about is how these policies actually affect people living there, and more often than not it is devastating. That is where it began.
Granted, regardless of how we got here, we're in the middle of it right now and actions should be taken, but not actions like those that have been taken by the Bush administration. The prisoners at Gitmo are a prime example. They should have tried these people to see if they even needed to be there instead of holding them with no charges and torturing them. The ones who are guilty should have gone through the legal system and suffered the consequences whether it be death or imprisonment.
Here's what I see. We went into Iraq on false pretenses about WMDs. We found that to be false, so the cause was changed to saving the people of Iraq from a dictator -- a brutal dictator at that. We were supposed to be providing them with democracy. So, what do you think the Iraqi people think of us now? Have we killed as many people as Saddam did yet? Have we tortured people just like Saddam did? Yes. So, in their eyes, if this is now democracy, how much better is it than what they started out with?
If we are to set the standard by which other democracies use as a guideline, we need to get it right, and that includes respecting the culture, religion and social norms of other countries instead of trying to make them into something they are not.
I think a major issue people ignore...(sm)
is why we are a target of terrorism. US policies towards the middle east thus far have been nothing less than selfish. What US news doesn't tell you about is how these policies actually affect people living there, and more often than not it is devastating. That is where it began.
Granted, regardless of how we got here, we're in the middle of it right now and actions should be taken, but not actions like those that have been taken by the Bush administration. The prisoners at Gitmo are a prime example. They should have tried these people to see if they even needed to be there instead of holding them with no charges and torturing them. The ones who are guilty should have gone through the legal system and suffered the consequences whether it be death or imprisonment.
Here's what I see. We went into Iraq on false pretenses about WMDs. We found that to be false, so the cause was changed to saving the people of Iraq from a dictator -- a brutal dictator at that. We were supposed to be providing them with democracy. So, what do you think the Iraqi people think of us now? Have we killed as many people as Saddam did yet? Have we tortured people just like Saddam did? Yes. So, in their eyes, if this is now democracy, how much better is it than what they started out with?
If we are to set the standard by which other democracies use as a guideline, we need to get it right, and that includes respecting the culture, religion and social norms of other countries instead of trying to make them into something they are not.
Another note: You are saying that terror should be met with like force. So, should Bush be waterboarded?
You mean Christians.
Is that what you are talking about? What other board?
That may be so....but Christians, at least the ones I know...
do not want to control the government. And too many times a strictly moral issue is ascribed to a "religious nut." Take abortion for example. There are nonreligious people who are against abortion, strictly on moral grounds, that it is wrong to kill innocent life. There are liberals who are against abortion for that reason...their reasoning is that you can't be against war because it kills and be for abortion, because it kills. That is their reasoning. For me, the basic moral precept of not committing murder should apply to the unborn as well as the "born" and that basic moral precept is enhanced by my faith. Everything I know about Jesus tells me his heart breaks every time an abortion occurs. Because of my faith, my heart also hurts for those millions of lives ended. People talk on and on and on about individual freedoms...yet walk all over the most basic of those...the right to life. Somehow people think they have the right to choose whether someone gets to live or not live. And I think that is way too much power...for one individual to have over the life of another. In any other case of that, when a person exercises that kind of power...it is illegal, it is wrong, it is murder, or manslaughter, or whatever you want to call it. And then you get into the business of defining when life starts. It is just my opinion that that is not a decision that is up to us. And an opinion I am entitled to. People protest the death penalty. No one calls them fanatics. To me there is no difference...lethal injection, abortion. Both kill. Sure, one has comitted a crime, which only makes the other more heinous. What crime did that developing child commit?
I do not say that to start an abortion thread. It is just to illustrate a point. I, as a Christian, believe in a moral code. I believe you should care about your fellow man, and churches in this country used to take care of the poor and weak in this country, before such a thing as a social program. No one had to force us to do it, we just did it. That kind of serving attitude, in my opinion, is good in public servants. They do need to serve a cause greater than themselves, and in their case I am not saying it is God. I am saying it is the American people. If more lawmakers listened to their Christian teachings they would do so. Not just serving God in their everyday lives, but serving the American people, because that is their job.
I agree it is not up to lawmakers to project their beliefs on an entire nation. Again there is the issue of abortion. That is not a "religious" issue. It is a moral issue...there are many nonreligious people who believe that it is wrong. Just like people believe other things are wrong and seek to legislate against those. Not from "religious" grounds, but moral grounds.
And you shouldn't characterize all Christians with the radicals. We are exhorted not to characterize all Muslims as terrorists. Just afford Christians the same courtesy, that's all I am saying.
no wonder christians have a bad name
Wow, aren't you a little smarty pants. So glad the whole world isn't just like you. I'm a Jew, we believe G-d's name is sacred and don't like to write it out unless it is going to be protected. Maybe you should go to h*ll because you don't seem to be a good example of how a christian should behave.
I have faith in G-d, and my people have for many, many years, long before there was a Jesus.
Well, not all Christians, but most of the
one on this board. I am a diest myself.
I'm just saying what most Christians believe
Just explaining why people see Muslim as wrong. I don't judge anybody or their beliefs. I can't stand people who do that and act all high and mighty. I have my own personal ones I won't get into here, but I would never force mine on somebody else.
Do you think that Christians who
believe abortion is murder are just religious quacks trying to push their religious beliefs on others? You don't have to be Christian to believe that abortion is wrong.
I do believe that there are some Christians out there who do turn more people away from religion than bringing them to it because of the way they go about it. But having religion and believing in things doesn't mean that we should have to give up our beliefs because someone else does not any more than you should have to put up with religion when you don't believe. This is where we have the problem.
I think abortion has to be a give and take kind of thing. I personally feel that it is wrong, however, I would be willing to compromise for the sake of meeting in the middle with people who believe it is a personal choice and not murder. I am 100% against late-term abortions as I feel there is no other word for that than MURDER. However, I could live with the early abortions. I have no problem with the morning after pill as to me that isn't much different than the birth control pill.
I just feel that there are people on the far right who need to unwind their panties..but I also believe that there are some far left people who need to do so themselves.
This is kind of like smokers versus non-smokers. Smokers feel they have the right to light up wherever they want because that is their right. However, non-smokers have a right to breathe clean air. So which one is right? Who rights are infringed upon?
Abortion is another subject where not everyone will be completely happy with. No matter what decision is made, people are going to complain. I just wish that we could somehow meet in the middle. Allow early term, deny late-term unless it is a life/death situation and just shut up about it.
Christians?
This was a very misfortunate event, but it was just an example of cult worship and weak minded people that killed their own children. I have no respect for people who kill children - NONE!
Christians?
I would have to wonder about that. Christians worship Jesus/God. Those people worshiped Jones, though they claimed to be Christians. Christianity is not a cult.
True Christians?!?!?
This is JOKE, right?? An article out of MAD Magazine or something???
I wish they would be real Christians. Just once.
It's very hard to understand how those who cheer war, torture and the fleecing of the poor think that their values are Jesus-oriented. It is scary to think what they have made of Jesus in their own minds, to believe he is applauding what they do.
Christians do that, not Muslims.
You state regarding Obama...He's linked with Ahmedinejad and therefore if he gets elected they will have an open invitation to come and get us and turn everyone into a muslim.
The last time I checked, it was the Christians who were trying to make everyone accept Jesus Christ as their savior and convert to them Christianity. Personally, I have never heard of Muslims trying to force anyone to believe as they do.
She didn't say anything about Christians
nm
Sorry you are so bitter towards Christians but you are right
++
true Christians
I consider myself a true Christian. I was baptized in the Southern Baptist Church when I was 11, and converted to Presbyterian Church USA as an adult, where I am an ordained Elder and Deacon. I am voting for Obama.
I am pro-choice and pro gay civil unions. The bible talks a lot more about tithing than it does about homosexuality (we just had a great sermon on this, but I don't remember the exact number difference.) Most Christians aren't up in arms for those who don't tithe. Homosexuality has been around forever, as has abortion (performed by midwives, etc., using herbs and other methods.)
I am married, with 2 children. I have never had to make the choice on abortion and hopefully never will. I hope my daughter never has to make this choice, but I sure as h@ll want it to be available to her if she does.
I think marriage is up to the individual churches, and many churches do perform gay marriages. I think that the government should allow civil unions. I really don't care what 2 people come together as a couple. I wish them all the love and happiness and support I have had in my own marriage for 21+ years.
How dare you say I am not a true Christian because my beliefs are different from yours. Christians come in many "flavors" and you are free to believe as you wish, and I don't think you are more or less Christian because of it.
I agree with the other posters, religion and politics don't mix and never should.
They are NOT Christians......they are evil
@@
not all republicans are christians.
x
Why woul d you think this was done by Christians?
Racial slurs and swastikas are your idea of Christian symbols? What you are speaking of is a crime, but I wouldn't chalk it up to Christians.
And I will gladly identify as a Christians. Though I don't usually thump my Bible, I do read it.
Why do Christians think atheists are
I am an atheist. I have a bachelors degree in theology. The atheists and agnostics I know personally have read and studied the Bible and many other belief systems before coming to the point in their lives where they come of the theological closet, as it were. In some cases, they are even more knowledgeable than some that practice the faith because they do not read the bible with a set doctrine that interprets it for them. The oft-held belief that all atheists are not knowledgeable of the Bible is simply not true.
So it's okay to offend Christians...
And yet this putz bows to Muslims.
Things that make you go 'hmmmm.'
He does not only lead Christians
.
why is it that the Christians are self-righteous sm
condescending and judgement and insulting and your posts are not? Whether you get to heaven is based on whether you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and SAvior. You cannot do anything on your own to warrant heaven.
Whether you believe or not, I am not going to deny my Lord and Savior because you think I am condescending or anything else. I truly hope you reconsider.
So you don't think Christmas is for the Christians?
Wow. I thought that was how it got its name. Good Friday/Easter aren't about Christians?
Since you don't believe that these are celebration of Christian theology, please don't let your voice be one of those complaining about the secularization of Christmas, since you don't feel it's Christian anyway.
First of all Christians who witness know sm
they cannot "save" anyone. Only Jesus Christ can save a soul. If a Christian is witnessing the proper way, he isn't pushing anything down anyone's throat. I will admit, there are some who don't do things correctly and it makes it bad for the ones who do.
As a Christian I want to see everyone I can come to know the Lord Jesus Chris in the free pardon of sin. They have every right to the same heaven I do. Its up to that person to decide who they will serve. It is a free choice.
Why are you using only Christians in this debate
I think a lot of people opposed to gay marriage are not Christians at all, and some who may be in support of it may very well be Christians. What does being Christian have to do with it at all?
I SAID most religious people...I did NOT say most Christians.
You guys don't rule the world, ya know. Just your little corner...just your own lives, not everyone else's.
Christians are persecuted all over the world. sm
ESPECIALLY in intolerant Muslim countries. Voice of the Martyrs is a very good source for this information.
Micro chip in Christians maybe?
We dont need entertainment when it comes to people and their beliefs..I think you need to check with your Jewish friends (are there any in your neck of the woods?) and see if they were **entertained** with her comments, if they laughed while looking at their parents tattoos from Germany or remembering the stories of their grandparents escaping Europe before and during WWII..LOL..big laugh, right?? Freaking ignorant if you ask me...maybe Christians need to get a sensitivity chip in their brains?? You know, to perfect them??
America was NOT founded by Christians...sm
The founding fathers were deists, and some would most likely even be considered atheists by today's standards. Either way, they were, above all, *secularists.* They were NOT Christians.
I get so tired of this "America has always been a Christian nation" lie perpetuated by the Christian right. It's more accurate to say that America has always been infested with Christian (and other) relious nut bags who wanted to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats, and have always tried to use our system of govt. to try to make that happen. That I'll give you.
Oh, and the tired old, "Separation of church and state isn't in the constitution." Anyone can see that the concept is there. Well, not anyone, I guess. You can't see it if you view everything through that nice, thick religious lens that they must hand out at some churches.
As for our government "pulling many laws right out of the Bible" that's pretty funny. You think the Bible is the only place we got that information, and if it wasn't written down in there, we wouldn't know not to do those things? Sorry, but that's just wrong. Humans throughout history have not liked it when other humans murdered, lied, cheated, stole, treated others badly, etc., long before the Bible was ever written. Maybe you haven't noticed that these same laws exist around the world, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof? Christians didn't invent them. But I guess they like to think they did.
The arrogance of Christiantity never ceases to amaze me. And you wonder why there is such animosity towards you.
|
