The dark side of faith (title of article)
Posted By: Libby on 2005-10-05
In Reply to:
(Considering how much importance the *right* religion is going to play in our future Supreme Court, I thought it was ironic that I found this at the Professional Ethics site. http://ethics.tamucc.edu/article.pl?sid=05/10/01/1656216)
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-brooks1oct01,0,3034570.story?track=hpmostemailedlink
The dark side of faithBy ROSA BROOKS
October 1, 2005
IT'S OFFICIAL: Too much religion may be a dangerous thing.
This is the implication of a study reported in the current issue of the Journal of Religion and Society, a publication of Creighton University's Center for the Study of Religion. The study, by evolutionary scientist Gregory S. Paul, looks at the correlation between levels of popular religiosity and various quantifiable societal health indicators in 18 prosperous democracies, including the United States.
Paul ranked societies based on the percentage of their population expressing absolute belief in God, the frequency of prayer reported by their citizens and their frequency of attendance at religious services. He then correlated this with data on rates of homicide, sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy, abortion and child mortality.
He found that the most religious democracies exhibited substantially higher degrees of social dysfunction than societies with larger percentages of atheists and agnostics. Of the nations studied, the U.S. — which has by far the largest percentage of people who take the Bible literally and express absolute belief in God (and the lowest percentage of atheists and agnostics) — also has by far the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.
This conclusion will come as no surprise to those who have long gnashed their teeth in frustration while listening to right-wing evangelical claims that secular liberals are weak on values. Paul's study confirms globally what is already evident in the U.S.: When it comes to values, if you look at facts rather than mere rhetoric, the substantially more secular blue states routinely leave the Bible Belt red states in the dust.
Murder rates? Six of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates were red in the 2004 elections (Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, South Carolina), while the deep blue Northeastern states had murder rates well below the national average. Infant mortality rates? Highest in the South and Southwest; lowest in New England. Divorce rates? Marriages break up far more in red states than in blue. Teen pregnancy rates? The same.
Of course, the red/blue divide is only an imperfect proxy for levels of religiosity. And while Paul's study found that the correlation between high degrees of religiosity and high degrees of social dysfunction appears robust, it could be that high levels of social dysfunction fuel religiosity, rather than the other way around.
Although correlation is not causation, Paul's study offers much food for thought. At a minimum, his findings suggest that contrary to popular belief, lack of religiosity does societies no particular harm. This should offer ammunition to those who maintain that religious belief is a purely private matter and that government should remain neutral, not only among religions but also between religion and lack of religion. It should also give a boost to critics of faith-based social services and abstinence-only disease and pregnancy prevention programs.
We shouldn't shy away from the possibility that too much religiosity may be socially dangerous. Secular, rationalist approaches to problem-solving emphasize uncertainty, evidence and perpetual reevaluation. Religious faith is inherently nonrational.
This in itself does not make religion worthless or dangerous. All humans hold nonrational beliefs, and some of these may have both individual and societal value. But historically, societies run into trouble when powerful religions become imperial and absolutist.
The claim that religion can have a dark side should not be news. Does anyone doubt that Islamic extremism is linked to the recent rise in international terrorism? And since the history of Christianity is every bit as blood-drenched as the history of Islam, why should we doubt that extremist forms of modern American Christianity have their own pernicious and measurable effects on national health and well-being?
Arguably, Paul's study invites us to conclude that the most serious threat humanity faces today is religious extremism: nonrational, absolutist belief systems that refuse to tolerate difference and dissent.
My prediction is that right-wing evangelicals will do their best to discredit Paul's substantive findings. But when they fail, they'll just shrug: So what if highly religious societies have more murders and disease than less religious societies? Remember the trials of Job? God likes to test the faithful.
To the truly nonrational, even evidence that on its face undermines your beliefs can be twisted to support them. Absolutism means never having to say you're sorry.
And that, of course, is what makes it so very dangerous.
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Tonight: Frontline -- The Dark Side
Click on the link check local listings to see when it is on where you live.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/
The Dark Side
(60 minutes) On September 11, 2001, deep inside a White House bunker, Vice President Dick Cheney was ordering U.S. fighter planes to shoot down any commercial airliner still in the air above America. At that moment, CIA Director George Tenet was meeting with his counter-terrorism team in Langley, Virginia. Both leaders acted fast, to prepare their country for a new kind of war. But soon a debate would grow over the goals of the war on terror, and the decision to go to war in Iraq. Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and others saw Iraq as an important part of a broader plan to remake the Middle East and project American power worldwide. Meanwhile Tenet, facing division in his own organization, saw non-state actors such as Al Qaeda as the highest priority. FRONTLINE's investigation of the ensuing conflict includes more than forty interviews, thousands of pages of documentary evidence, and a substantial photographic archive. It is the third documentary about the war on terror from the team that produced Rumsfeld's War and The Torture Question. (read the press release)
Yeah, he turned....gone over to the dark side...nm
Don't think you read the same article, THAT IS THE TITLE...see the link I posted...
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Did you notice the question mark at the end of the article's title?
Do you understand the meaning of "potential?" Imagine that. Judges have a "natural predisposition" toward complying with the DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE PEOPLE. What a crazy and novel idea.
The truth has been out there for quite a while now. There is no THERE there. This is sheer lunacy, but hey, knock yourselves out. Nobody's listening to this garbage and the entire nation has much more pressing issues to worry about, but to remind you of them here would be a complete waste of time, in view of this myopic obsessive fixation of a marginalized tiny fringe minority of the GOP (which has been recently denounced by other, more intelligent republicans).
I didn't talk down your faith but your faith
Get over yourself already. He shows the kindness and tolerance of a true Christian and not all the hating and intolerance like you and a lot of people here. Just because you are a Christian doesn't make you any better than anyone else
You are in the dark......just the way O wants it
))
Dark Hole Sun
I hope some day, the medical community can figure out how to remove those sticks from up these self-righteous a$$es. Oh, I am so offended. Cover my eyes! You said the a-word!!!! Oh, oh........don't read 'em - it's that simple.
Seems you are really into dark foreboding.
floats your boat, go fo it. I prefer to take my comfort in, "...to those who would tear the world down, we will defeat you."
semeni4 semeni4 is a cool boy!! Curio cabinet
I'm praying for you and your dark soul.
For those that want to continue to live in the dark
I do not care to do that. As a democrat, I have watched this man whom so many think will be their saving grace. This man was raised Muslim, is Muslim through and through, and only went Christian on us after he came here and started attending Rev Wright's church.
He is very careful about skirting around questions posed to him. He has never been able to prove US citizenship...refuses to put forth a legitimate birth certificate proving it, and is now facing a suit to hopefully force him to prove just that. I am not so easily led as some O lovers.
I have a close friend in Atlanta, GA, who is an aware winning journalist. This is where one of the most recent honor killings took place. As all campaigns are questioned when something important surfaces, they want to know how the candidate feels about certain things. Well, knowing Obama is Muslim by birth and upbringing, this question was posed out of Georgia to his camp, who would not give a straight answer. They refused to let Obama speak to this. They went round and round the question, but wouldn't even come out and say he would condemn such things. Not even a condemnation of these acts.
Just not easily led about this man.
"I am sorry your future is so dark and meaningless"
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He has got to paint as dark a picture as
pretty good job of it, so when just a glimmer of light shines through, he can tell you, Yes, I Did!
But, I sure hate to bust your bubble, we are noncombustible, we are not going extinct, we ain't going anywhere! We just here praying for our country.
I can see the title of her next book now...sm
*The Liberals Took My Voting Rights.* She's such a nutjob!
Actually, I believe it's an album title.
point you hoped to achieve by posting that? Or did you just think it sounded clever? It means "attention" or "careful," and as such, does not even address the issue. Please, do tell how a rumor about SP possibly trying to get someone fired translates to her "loving to fire people." Was there proof that she had someone fired? Or do you always believe everything you hear on TV and take it as gospel without looking into the facts?
I believe the title is "Holiness"
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You need to reread the title.......
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My dear....during some of this country's dark days....
whites with mental illness were also sterilized. How about slavery? How about thousands of white soldiers who died on battlefields to free them? How about the thousands of WHITES along the underground railroad who helped escaped slaves find homes?
YES, the preacher is hateful, the theology is racist.
well, i would call it dark but not necessarily meaningless
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Exactly. You would think the job title would have given the Prez. a hint.sm
You know, Federal EMERGENCY Management Agency. Sometimes I wonder, no I wonder a lot about this prez and his decision making.
Will 2008 get here soon enough? No telling what he'll do in a WHOLE 2-1/2 years.
See inside. I can't figure out what to title this. LOL
I just don't know a nice way to say this but those families that have babies they can't afford do so just to get on the welfare system. They certainly don't want that taken away from them. As long as they have babies, they won't have to work and live off the system.
What does Pelosi plan to do? Force everyone on birth control that have X amount of dollars per each child and state "You make $1 less than you're allowed to have this many children. Now you go on birth control."
Before you flame me, my husband's cousin did that. He was too lazy to work as was his wife...well, nah, she didn't have time to get a job. She was too busy having kids.
That is NOT in the title. More lies. Keep drinking.
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I watched it and I have no idea where this is coming from....dark orifices? nm
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See message (unsure of a subject title to put)
I have mixed feelings. There are horrible things going on in the world and always will be. Some call it torture others do not. It's all a matter of opinion. The people who are interrogators are trained in how to obtain information from the enemies. We (you and me and others on this board) are not. What is your solution to this? What do you suggest they do to keep America safe? Do you have any solutions or suggestions? We don't kill prisoners - unlike our enemies. However, we must use whatever technique we can to get the vital information needed. We don't cause bodily injury, and we don't cut off their heads very slowly like they do. So, they think they are going to die, you know what...I don't care. Just get the information needed to keep America safe. Unless you belong to the military or any of these government agencies involved in this type of work, you don't really know what is going on. Sorry but sitting down with a nice cup of tea and some crumpets and asking them nicely is not going to get them to speak. I say leave the decisions like this to the people who are in charge of this and trained in this. More important things going on than to think about if we are hurting the feelings of our enemies.
please note...the title line of the previous post were....
sim's words, not mine. Refer to her/his post.
You are correct, I got one word of the title of his book incorrect,
and for that I apologize. However, the information I quoted from the book is correct, "Frank" is a communist. But, the fact remains, I never called Obama a communist. If I knew he was, I would not hesitate to call him one. I do know he is a socialist, and I call him one.
No need to ridicule and call others ignorant to make a point. It somewhat dulls any point you try to make.
You miss the title of the file "Conservative extremism"?
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It's a dark day in America when voters dare to feel inspired and hopeful?
rasberries
Provide a link to the document with that title. None of the official copies I've seen use the wor
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Each brown place in the link takes you to a different article that supports this article...nm
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So does someone's comment at the end of the article, discredit the whole article??
Unbelievable.
Faith. sm
There was a poster on this board not too long ago of the Jewish faith. He was here to discuss the situation in Israel. He was hounded from this board ruthlessly. And not by conservatives.
Faith
I am not here to discuss Israel, just replying to an abortion post. I really don't care if I am hounded by anyone. Happens all the time :-)
I have faith
and am not ashamed to express it. Seems to me democrates place their hand on the bible just like rebublicans when taking the oath of office. Do you wonder about that too?
I think it does but I do have faith there are
good people out there too like you. So thank you for saying that. I tune in to CNN a lot of it has come up a few times that it matters. It is just depressing to me that it does still matter.
take care.
Keep the faith. No one knows what is going,,,sm
to happen with the economy or in the world over the next few months. At least we have a glimmer of hope with Obama.
Got that right, but keep the faith.
we can get through anything. We will come out in a much better place if we simply get our collective acts together and realize that change is coming (and I DON'T mean the campaign slogan) because it has to. WE have a choice. We can take charge of the situation and face those challenges as a united front or stay sidelined and wait for our leaders to show us the way. Clearly, I know which side of that decision I come down on.
According to your faith...(sm)
Christians were at one point persecuted, and they pushed and pushed until they got their way. I guess it was okay to do that back then.
Yes, I am very derogatory about faith. sm
Thank you for noticing. Let me respond.
You wrote:
>>yet I think it takes much more "faith" in a ridiculous theory that a one-cell amoeba crawled out of a mucky ocean somewhere and through "evolution" became man. You can't "prove" that, scientists can't "prove" that, but you believe it...because somebody said and it wrote it down...sound like the Bible? lol. That too is "faith." >>
Well, first of all you're mistaken. Scientists can prove evolution and have. The only people left still trying to deny evolution are doing so because it challenges or threatens their religious beliefs. For the rest of the world it's clear there is overwhelming evidence for biologic evolution and natural selection as the way that life developed and continues to develop (or become extinct...) on Earth. Please, read up on it. Fossils. Dinosaurs. It's facinating.
Note that I'm not talking about the *origin* of life, about how it all get started. Neither science or religion can answer that question. Religion says God made everything but it doesn't answer the question of who or what made God. And evolution doesn't answer the question of how the universe and our planet came to exist in the first place, just how life evolved here on Earth. (Though I think it's entirely possible science will eventually be able to answer this question.)
Second, what you wrote is not a valid arguement because religion and science are not on equal footing. They're two completely different things. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Let me give you a nice long quote from one of my favorite authors, Richard Dawkins (which should come as no surprise to you) because he explains it far more eloquently than I can:
'(Religious) fundamentalists know they are right because they have read the truth in a holy book and they know, in advance, that nothing will budge them from their belief. The truth of the holy book is an axiom, not the end product of a process of reasoning. The book is true, and if the evidence seems to contradict it, it is the evidence that must be thrown out, not the book. By contrast, what I, as a scientist, believe (for example, evolution) I believe not because of reading a holy book but because I have studied the evidence. It really is a very different matter. Books about evolution are believed not because they are holy. They are believed because they present overwhelming quantities of mutually buttressed evidence. In principle, any reader can go and check that evidence. When a science book is wrong, somebody eventually discovers the mistake and it is corrected in subsequent books. That conspicuously doesn't happen with holy books.'
Now to your next question:
>>And I do not understand why you have to protest against something so strongly that you feel does not exist. Why would you bother? Why does someone having a life-changing experience bother you so much?>>
The part that bothered me was not someone having a life-changing experience. What bothers me is religion. I should think that was clear. What irritated me was the comment made in the post about athiests. It was an opinion presented as fact. That irritated me enough to cause me to respond. (BTW, did you read the whole thread, or just that part? We were talking about the bible.)
You also asked why I would bother to protest about something I don't believe exists. Are you kidding me? Look at the board we're on. It's a political board. I don't believe God exists, but religion sure does and I don't want its influence in our government. I don't have time to list all the reasons I have for protesting, but that's probably the biggest - the fact that I don't want to live in a theocracy. I don't want a president who believes God talks to him and tells him what to do, for example. I want religion to stay out of our goverment, at every level. This country is not only about freedom OF regligion, it's about freedom FROM religion.
I SO agree and we are not of the same faith
I do not think Chronicles is in my bible - I have to go check that....but regardless, I totally agree with you. It says in my bible something like when chyt hits fan, it's gonna happen from the inside out.....this, to me, would be IT. I'm so not voting for him......nothign really against him, per se, but he's saying he's gonna fix every single problem in the USA - well, our economy sux....so where is the money coming from? Rhetorical question bears no answer - because it's going to come from us. Another thing - he does not have the amount of experience (governmental and the rest of it) for me to be comfortable with him as president. he ain't no JFK who came from a HUGE heavy background of experience(s). No offense meant to anyone but personally, I hope he loses - and Michelle said a month ago or two, *we are only going to do this once, and if we don't win, we are not going through this again* - I'm so praying for that to occur. y opinion, please no flames.....to each his/her own about who they want in office.
I'd prefer someone than anyone who was running for this....but that's not gonna happen, unfortunately!!
We shall see. I never put much faith in blogs...
but, perhaps those who go to Obama will be replaced by those who come to McCain from the other side. Sorry...nothing will dampen this for me today. :)
I person of faith
who pubically ridiculed the Bible in a speech. A man who has sketchy associations. A man who attended a school in Indonesia were his school records list his religion as muslim and yet he denies ever being a muslim. A man who allowed his children to be baptized and attend a church where the pastor preached hate messages. A man who supports partial birth abortions......
Please excuse me while I vomit!
Isn't that what's known as 'blind faith'?
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Blind faith.....
In a way it is. I have faith that God is there for me. That doesn't mean things are sugar and honey all the time, because they're definitely not.
Jesus ask of to just have the faith of a mustard seed. He is asking us to have no more faith than that of the size of a mustard seed, which is meniscule, and you will be surprised where that will take you. You know, we are asked to ask questions of God, to seek him, and ask Him to prove Himself. What better way for God to show us his love than to ask Him to prove himself?
You might just see great things happen in your life.
Having respect for faith all around?
I do. Faith and religion, two different things. I respect everyone's right to pray. I just don't think it should be made into a political issue like it has been done on this board. If it was truly a prayer request, why wasn't it on the prayer request board and the faith board?
I too do not put much faith in polls.
Did these polls have John Kerry ahead at this time during the last election. They also showed the Nixon was ahead of Kennedy. We will find out when we find out. Just go vote for who you think is best and hope for the best.
Who put faith in what government?
Who put faith in what government? I for one put NO faith in Bush from day one....he was a disastrous governor in the Lone Star, and I knew by the time he got finished with America and Americans, that we would barely be able to recognize it. You are right. The shrub did inherit at least something he should have been able to work with, but evidently it was beneath his pay grade to pay attention to such things since he had wars to wage.
Obama wants to restore a little balance...another thing the shrub monkeyed around with...especially his notorious distain for judicial powers and addiction to executive privilege. We need to take out that generic "government" reference and replace it with republicans failed us. The more power they get, the more they will fail us. Voters get that now.
Why are you lying? Obama wants stricter gun controls. He cannot take your precious guns away from you without a constitutional amendment. Defend yourselves against what? You really are a paranoid bunch, aren't you? Uh, oh....your argument just fell apart. So I ask again, can anybody explain Reagan's rambling incoherence?
Oh ye of little faith. Go to the top of the page.
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Right. Why cant he have faith in the people rather
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THIS IS NOT THE FAITH BOARD.
This is the POLITICS BOARD.
And those of different faith are probably praying
Everyone, regardless of their personal religious beliefs, is worshipping the "true" God, the one that is "true and living" to them.
No religion is better or "truer" and more "living" than another.
Your creator is "true and living" to you. Someone else's creator might be just as "true and living" to them.
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