I hate to disagree with you sam because I usually find you right on the spot about a lot, but this time I do disagree...
One of the most common statements is that the country was “founded on Christian principles by Christian men”. However, research into American history shows this statement is false. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.
None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.
Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, and altered his wording regarding equal rights increasing its religious overtones.
The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country. The Founders clearly did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact "good" Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution. Here are some statements and quotes.
John Adams – “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
George Washington – The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.
George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary. Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative.
Benjamin Franklin - ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
Thomas Paine – Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
Other founders who were deists...Ethan Allen, James Madison & James Monroe.
Also, when the Constitution was written they wanted to ensure that no single religion make the claim of being the official national religion like England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion exception in exclusionary terms. However, the words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God are never mentioned – not even once. The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the US was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion”.
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Other related messages found in our database this country was founded on Christianity sm
go back and read your original history books, not the ones they are trying to sanitize and make politically correct. Regardless of the popular belief, this is a Christian nation. Yes we have other religions here but the nation itself was founded on Christianity and the words of the one true God. We are NOT a secular country and I don't care what Obama and the left say, we are a Christian nation.........at least until Obama has anything to do with it and he turns it into a Muslim nation. You may be disappointed then.
This country was founded by Christians...
form of government founded by Christians, documents authored by Christians...Christians, Christians, Christians. Radical? Perhaps. Christians? Most definitely.
So do you think our founding fathers
were religious fanatics?
Anyone who thinks that the Founding Fathers >>>
intended the country to be run like a Christian theocracy is an ignoramus, a moron, or both.
I don't have to be tolerant of anyone trying to shove his religion down my political throat.
Don't we want to live like our founding fathers did?
Come on, just about everything I read on this board is a freaking joke, so, let's brainstorm some ideas so we can really be FREE. The first item to toss is the earned income credit - get rid of that welfare, money sucking drain on those of us who don't qualify!!! I'm tired of carrying all those lowlifes who don't earn as much as I do on my back!
Yep, our founding fathers did lay the foundation...(sm)
for our country over 200 years ago. Unfortunately, the republican party hasn't evolved with the rest of the world over those 200 years.
Here is just a little bit for you, quotes of the founding fathers...NOT deists as you would like to
talk about arrogance. Your post is heavvyyyy with it.
Early Years
The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.
William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
______________________________________________________________________
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean He**." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, Editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Note all the references to Christianity and to Jesus. Now that your lies are put to rest, can we please move ON?
Read the quotes. They were NOT secularists. The Lord Jesus Christ was part of their everyday lives. It was not something they put on on Sunday and took off on Monday, like some religious types do. It was ingrained in everything they did. That is what Christianity is.
What you are so angry about is that someone is still willing to call something that is wrong...wrong. You don't like feeling guilty so you attack...that is a normal human response. Examine why it makes you so angry to think this country was founded by Christians and all our founding documents are based on Christian ideals.
do u mean the founding fathers that actually wrote our constition?
The ones that didn't wipe their a$$e$ on it? The ones that wanted to separate church from state? The ones that wanted liberty from tyranny?
Our Founding Fathers were considered terrorists. sm
God forbid, there are people out there who want to defend our Constitution. Americans should be ashamed of themselves for letting things go this far. Real change needs to come from us. It should alarm people. Stalin, Mao, and Hitler used the same tactics to stifle dissent. People who support the Independent Party, Christians, and pro lifers are also on it. DHS distributed that memo to 70 or 80 different fusion centers throughout the US. Many thanks are due the concerned and honest police officer who leaked the one that went to Missouri.
America was NOT founded by Christians...sm
The founding fathers were deists, and some would most likely even be considered atheists by today's standards. Either way, they were, above all, *secularists.* They were NOT Christians.
I get so tired of this "America has always been a Christian nation" lie perpetuated by the Christian right. It's more accurate to say that America has always been infested with Christian (and other) relious nut bags who wanted to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats, and have always tried to use our system of govt. to try to make that happen. That I'll give you.
Oh, and the tired old, "Separation of church and state isn't in the constitution." Anyone can see that the concept is there. Well, not anyone, I guess. You can't see it if you view everything through that nice, thick religious lens that they must hand out at some churches.
As for our government "pulling many laws right out of the Bible" that's pretty funny. You think the Bible is the only place we got that information, and if it wasn't written down in there, we wouldn't know not to do those things? Sorry, but that's just wrong. Humans throughout history have not liked it when other humans murdered, lied, cheated, stole, treated others badly, etc., long before the Bible was ever written. Maybe you haven't noticed that these same laws exist around the world, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof? Christians didn't invent them. But I guess they like to think they did.
You need to read up on your history of this country.
Why does it matter what the origins of slavery were? The fact is, most of the founding fathers either owned slaves or families' had owned slaves. Washington owned hundreds of slaves, although he freed them as part of his will upon his death. What do you mean, slavery came much later. Later than what? This country still condoned slavery for 100 years. As far as the founding fathers and our rights we protect here's some info:
It's important to differentiate the Constitution that the Founding Fathers cooked up from the Bill of Rights. Today when we think of the protections of the American system, we usually think of the shining example of ethics and goodness contained in the Bill of Rights. These are the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They are primarily the work of George Mason (1725-1792). He would have been a Founding Father because he was a delegate to the convention from Virginia, but he refused to sign the Constitution. He realized that it failed to protect individual liberties and failed to oppose slavery.
Mr. Mason lobbied against adoption of the Constitution just as many of the Founding Fathers lobbied against the Bill of Rights. Most of the Founding Fathers disapproved of giving ordinary citizens such liberties as freedom of religion, freedom from unreasonable search and torture, the right of free speech and so forth. In fact, when John Adams (1735-1826) was president (1797-1801), he took away freedom of speech.
The Bill of Rights is really the people's voice against the Founding Fathers; liberty against conformity.
_________
As far as the Native American disgrace/slaughter, all I can say is you have an interesting viewpoint that is not shared by many indigenous. Bhoo-zhoo.
Men and woman and mothers and fathers are speaking now. sm
Many of whom have fought in Iraq. They are on television right now. But you won't watch it. It would be too hard for you. YOu would be screaming obscenities at them. Do you know, they had to bleep out part of the antiwar march yesterday in DC because of the obscenities and vulgar language. That is what you are, obscene and vulgar and unpatriotic.
From a founding member of Delta Force
http://www.dailynews.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?article=3641046
'Unit's' military expert has fighting words for Bush
By David Kronke, TV Critic
U-Entertainment
Eric Haney, a retired command sergeant major of the U.S. Army, was a founding member of Delta Force, the military's elite covert counter-terrorist unit. He culled his experiences for Inside Delta Force (Delta; $14), a memoir rich with harrowing stories, though in an interview, Haney declines with a shrug to estimate the number of times he was almost killed. (Perhaps the most high-profile incident that almost claimed his life was the 1980 failed rescue of the hostages in Iran.) Today, he's doing nothing nearly as dangerous: He serves as an executive producer and technical adviser for The Unit, CBS' new hit drama based on his book, developed by playwright David Mamet. Even up against American Idol, The Unit shows muscle, drawing 18 million viewers in its first two airings.
Since he has devoted his life to protecting his country in some of the world's most dangerous hot spots, you might assume Haney is sympathetic to the Bush administration's current plight in Iraq (the laudatory cover blurb on his book comes from none other than Fox's News' Bill O'Reilly). But he's also someone with close ties to the Pentagon, so he's privy to information denied the rest of us.
We recently spoke to Haney, an amiable, soft-spoken Southern gentleman, on the set of The Unit.
Q: What's your assessment of the war in Iraq?
A: Utter debacle. But it had to be from the very first. The reasons were wrong. The reasons of this administration for taking this nation to war were not what they stated. (Army Gen.) Tommy Franks was brow-beaten and ... pursued warfare that he knew strategically was wrong in the long term. That's why he retired immediately afterward. His own staff could tell him what was going to happen afterward.
We have fomented civil war in Iraq. We have probably fomented internecine war in the Muslim world between the Shias and the Sunnis, and I think Bush may well have started the third world war, all for their own personal policies.
Q: What is the cost to our country?
A: For the first thing, our credibility is utterly zero. So we destroyed whatever credibility we had. ... And I say we, because the American public went along with this. They voted for a second Bush administration out of fear, so fear is what they're going to have from now on.
Our military is completely consumed, so were there a real threat - thankfully, there is no real threat to the U.S. in the world, but were there one, we couldn't confront it. Right now, that may not be a bad thing, because that keeps Bush from trying something with Iran or with Venezuela.
The harm that has been done is irreparable. There are more than 2,000 American kids that have been killed. Tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed � which no one in the U.S. really cares about those people, do they? I never hear anybody lament that fact. It has been a horror, and this administration has worked overtime to divert the American public's attention from it. Their lies are coming home to roost now, and it's gonna fall apart. But somebody's gonna have to clear up the aftermath and the harm that it's done just to what America stands for. It may be two or three generations in repairing.
Q: What do you make of the torture debate? Cheney ...
A: (Interrupting) That's Cheney's pursuit. The only reason anyone tortures is because they like to do it. It's about vengeance, it's about revenge, or it's about cover-up. You don't gain intelligence that way. Everyone in the world knows that. It's worse than small-minded, and look what it does.
I've argued this on Bill O'Reilly and other Fox News shows. I ask, who would you want to pay to be a torturer? Do you want someone that the American public pays to torture? He's an employee of yours. It's worse than ridiculous. It's criminal; it's utterly criminal. This administration has been masters of diverting attention away from real issues and debating the silly. Debating what constitutes torture: Mistreatment of helpless people in your power is torture, period. And (I'm saying this as) a man who has been involved in the most pointed of our activities. I know it, and all of my mates know it. You don't do it. It's an act of cowardice. I hear apologists for torture say, Well, they do it to us. Which is a ludicrous argument. ... The Saddam Husseins of the world are not our teachers. Christ almighty, we wrote a Constitution saying what's legal and what we believed in. Now we're going to throw it away.
Q: As someone who repeatedly put your life on the line, did some of the most hair-raising things to protect your country, and to see your country behave this way, that must be ...
A: It's pretty galling. But ultimately I believe in the good and the decency of the American people, and they're starting to see what's happening and the lies that have been told. We're seeing this current house of cards start to flutter away. The American people come around. They always do.
THE UNIT
What: Action-adventure about special-ops unit.
Where: CBS (Channel 2).
When: 9 p.m. Tuesdays.
---
David Kronke (818) 713-3638 david.kronke@dailynews.com
Yes, as in Obama is trampling roughshod over much many of our founding principles"
"Much many" in this context means "ALL". Has sort of a nice ring to it, doncha think?
christianity and who
muslims are to terrorism and suicide bombings what christians are to child-molestation and clinic bombers
Christianity......
You're right. Our nation was founded on the principals of Christianity and I am SICK AND TIRED of it being pushed off as just a bunch of "religious zealots". That would be the Muslims. And I don't care what anyone else says about it, that is just what they want, to have countries make laws that prohibit the name of Jesus to even be spoken, while they continue to spew hatred and tell us how THEIR God teaches to hate everyone else but themselves.
Christians need to stand up for themselves and do it without caring what others think. Being meek does not mean you let others that mean you harm walk all over our country, our laws, our God. Every time I turn around there's some garbage about a Muslim wanting to have a special foot bath in their school or some such junk and I am sick of it!!!!! This is for the most part a Christian country (minus those that have no belief) and people need to stop hiding in the corners as if they are afraid to speak the name of Jesus Christ, afraid of what others may think.
Christianity
I'm not so sure people know what Christianity really is. People had made interpretations of what he said, but I know myself from conversation that people misinterpret what others mean all the time.
There are theologians who are now thinking that he did not mean He is the way to Heaven (the whole believing he died for our sins thing) but more his way of thinking (as he was actually trying to teach people). That makes a lot more sense than the original interpretation.
And he spouts like this in the name of christianity...sm
which I think he is misrepresenting and twisting. One can only hope that his dwindling croud picks up their Bible and reads it for themselves. Last thing I heard he was loosing ratings and support big time anywho. I always make sure my TVs are not on the station his show comes on. I wouldn't want him to slip up and get not one rating point from me.
Spewing hate in the name of religion. That does sound eeriely similar to a terrorist jihadist.
Christianity and government.
The United States of America is comprised of people with many different religious beliefs. Each and every one of us is entitled to a government that is not biased towards any particular religion. We are all equal in this Country whether we are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, etc. I am not a Christian and do not want Christian beliefs forced on me or any other citizen of the United States of America. That is why there are churches, and that is where it should stay.
Christianity is not a cult?
Seriously? You might want to check a dictionary.
Christianity did not exist............. sm
in the name of Christianity until Jesus left this earth. (Acts 11:26). Homosexuality was defined as wrong long before that.
Obama supports abortion. True Christians who believe that the ENTIRE Bible is the infallible Word of God believe that God gave life and we do not have the right to take it away.
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).
"This is what the LORD says—he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you..."(Isaiah 44:2).
There are a bunch more but those are a few.
Next, Obama supports gay marriage. The Bible tells us that 1) Homosexuality is a sin and 2) Marriage is for one man and one woman.
As I said before, homosexuality is no greater or less a sin than telling a white lie or murder. It is also a forgivable sin. If God thought homosexuality was okay, he would had given us the "parts" to reproduce with other women, or men with other men.
These are the two main issues that we disagree with. Obama is not a true Christian if he can say this is okay.
Now of course if you don't know Jesus as your Savior or you don't believe in the Bible then you're just going to say we are crazy, mean, hateful, etc.
Faith is a gift from God, and without it you simply can't begin to comprehend Him or His Word. He gives faith to those who EARNESTLY seek him.
Just for anyone who was truly interested in knowing why the majority of us are voting Republican. I can pretty much guarantee you if a democratic nominee had these same views we would vote for them, or if an independent had a chance to win and had these views we would vote for them. We don't just blindly affiliate with one party.
Ku Klux Klan and Christianity
The History Channel just aired a program regarding the relationship between the Ku Klux Klan and Christianity. The Ku Klux Klan website has the following statement at the top of the page.
Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!
I do not get you! Obama converted to Christianity, what more
do you want? He confessed to Christianity!!
Or do you think that this is all a conspiracy and he will suddenly emerge as Ahmedinejad, the second. II ?
Obama converted 1992 to Christianity, 2009 he became President, 17 years later!
This isd proof that he did not convert to Christianity to become President, he did it much earlier.
It was just his destiny to become President, already at the age of 8 years, in Jakarta, when he was asked what he wanted to become, Obama said: 'I want to become a President.'
Jewish family flees Delaware school district's aggressive Christianity
by JewsOnFirst.org, June 28, 2006
Note: On July 11th, we posted two follow-up reports, which you can find here. And on August 23rd, we posted another update here.
Links to articles and documents cited in our report appear immediately below it
A large Delaware school district promoted Christianity so aggressively that a Jewish family felt it necessary to move to Wilmington, two hours away, because they feared retaliation for filing a lawsuit. The religion (if any) of a second family in the lawsuit is not known, because they're suing as Jane and John Doe; they also fear retaliation. Both families are asking relief from state-sponsored religion.
The behavior of the Indian River School District board suggests the families' fears are hardly groundless.
The district spreads over a considerable portion of southern Delaware. The families' complaint, filed in federal court in February 2005, alleges that the district had created an environment of religious exclusion and unconstitutional state-sponsored religion.
Among numerous specific examples in the complaint was what happened at plaintiff Samantha Dobrich's graduation in 2004 from the district's high school. She was the only Jewish student in her graduating class. The complaint relates that local pastor, Jerry Fike, in his invocation, followed requests for our heavenly Father's guidance for the graduates with:
I also pray for one specific student, that You be with her and guide her in the path that You have for her. And we ask all these things in Jesus' name.
In addition to the ruined graduation experience, the Dobrich-Doe lawsuit alleges that:
The district's custom and practice of school-sponsored prayer was frequently imposed on impressionable non-Christian students, which violated their constitutional rights.
The district ignored the Supreme Court's 1992 Lee decision limiting prayer at graduation ceremonies -- even after a district employee complained about the prayer at her child's 2003 graduation..
District teachers and staff led Bible clubs at several schools. Club members got to go to the head of the lunch line.
While Bible clubs were widely available, student book clubs were rare and often canceled by the district.
When Jane Doe complained that her non-Christian son Jordan Doe was left alone when his classmates when to Bible club meetings, district staff insisted that Jordan should attend the club, regardless of his religion.
The district schools attended by Jordan and his sister Jamie Doe distributed Bibles to students in 2003, giving them time off from class to pick up the books.
Prayer --often sectarian -- is a routine part of district sports programs and social events
One of the district's middle schools gave students the choice of attending a special Bible Club if they did not want to attend a lesson on evolution.
A middle school teacher told students there was only one true religion and gave them pamphlets for his surfing ministry.
Samantha Dobrich's honors English teacher frequently discussed Christianity, but no other religion.
Students frequently made mandatory appearances at district board meetings -- where they were a captive audience for board members' prayers to Jesus.
The Dobriches said the prayers to Jesus' ruined the graduation experience for Samantha. Mona Dobrich, Samantha's mother, repeatedly called district officials to complain. A board member told her she would have to get the matter put on a meeting agenda -- then refused to put it on the agenda. The school superintendent slipped the topic onto the agenda and then told Mona Dobrich she would need to raise it during the public comment period.
School board unyielding The board opened the June 15, 2004 meeting at which Dobrich was prepared to speak with a prayer in Jesus' name. The board was not forthcoming to her request that official prayers be in God's name rather than in Jesus' name. The high school athletic director veered from his agenda topic to encourage the board to keep praying in Jesus' name.
Board member Donald Hattier followed Dobrich out and offered to compromise by keeping graduation free of prayers to Jesus. And, according to the complaint, he warned her not to hire a lawyer.
A large crowd turned out for the next board meeting and many people spoke in support of school prayer. Mona Dobrich spoke passionately of her own outsider experience as a student in Indian River District schools and of how hard she'd worked to make sure her children didn't also feel like outsiders.
Hattier again approached her after the meeting. This time, the complaint alleges, he told her he'd spoken with the Rutherford Institute, a religious right legal group.
Talk show calls out a mob The district board announced the formation of a committee to develop a religion policy. And the local talk radio station inflamed the issue.
On the evening in August 2004 when the board was to announce its new policy, hundreds of people turned out for the meetng. The Dobrich family and Jane Doe felt intimidated and asked a state trooper to escort them.
The complaint recounts that the raucous crowd applauded the board's opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him: take your yarmulke off! His statement, read by Samantha, confided I feel bad when kids in my class call me Jew boy.
A state representative spoke in support of prayer and warned board members that the people would replace them if they faltered on the issue. Other representatives spoke against separating god and state.
A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might disappear like Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. O'Hair disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later.
The crowd booed an ACLU speaker and told her to go back up north.
In the days after the meeting the community poured venom on the Dobriches. Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area. Someone called them and said the Ku Klux Klan was nearby.
Killing Christ Classmates accused Alex Dobrich of killing Christ and he became fearful about wearing his yarmulke, the complaint recounts. He took it off whenever he saw a police officer, fearing that the officer might see it and pull over his mother's car. When the family went grocery shopping, the complaint says, Alexander would remove the pin holding his yarmulke on his head for fear that someone would grab it and rip out some of his hair.
The Dobriches refinanced their home so that Mona and Alexander could move to Wilmington, away from a situation that had become untenable, according to the complaint; Marco stayed behind because of his job, .
Ultimately, it continues, the expense of two households forced the Dobriches to sell their home. And Samantha was forced to withdraw from the joint program she attended at Columbia University and the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. She is being treated for depression.
The lawsuit states that the Doe family wants to remain anonymous in order to avoid the retaliation experienced by the Dobrich family. Jordan and Jane Doe are also suffering from depression related to their opposition with the Indian River School District's religion policy.
Elusive religion policy Even after Mona and Alexander Dobrich moved to Wilmington, the family and its lawyers continued to request the district's policy on religion in the schools and to ask for meetings with the board. Their requests were stonewalled, so in February 2005 they filed suit.
In a statement issued through her attorneys and quoted by the Delaware Wave, Mona Dobrichexplained why the families were suing: We are not trying to remove God from the schools or the public square. We simply don't think it is right for the district to impose a particular religious view on impressionable students.
The families seek to recover damages and to compel changes in the school district's policy.
That policy, however, remains elusive.
At the request of a board member soon after the infamous graduation, the Rutherford Institute, prepared a prayer policy for the school board, according to the complaint. In October 2004 the board reportedly adopted a new policy on religion in response to the Dobrich's complaint.
It is unclear if that policy is the one prepared by the Rutherford Institute -- because no one has seen it. The Dobrich's complaint states that the policy was unavailable and when the families requested it the district told them to file a freedom of information request.
This June, the board had a reading of a proposed change in the unseen policy. They said the policy and its changes would be posted on their website, (www.irsd.net) but on June 27th, it was nowhere to be found among several dozen policy documents.
The Rutherford Institute enters the fray At the boisterous August 2004 district board meeting, the head of the Rutherford Institute, John Whitehead, urged the board to set an example for other schools, according to the Daily Times, a local paper.
A Rutherford affiliated lawyer, Thomas Neuberger, came into the case representing one of the school board members. Before he left the case last August (because the judge dismissed the individual board members from the case), Neuberger was reportedly feuding with other lawyers.
While he was in the case, his client, Reginald L. Helms reportedly admitted one of the lawsuit's allegations: that school officials invited Pastor Fike to the 2004 graduation. That undermined the district's claim that students chose the speakers.
Neuberger was quoted by the Delaware Wave newspaper denying that the Dobrich's son Alex was taunted as a Jew by classmates. I seriously doubt that it ever occurred, he told the paper, contending that the plaintiffs were using the allegation used to defame the good citizens who serve on this school board.
In its response to the lawsuit, the district reportedly called some of the families' claims immaterial, impertinent and scandalous, and intended only to cast the district in a negative light.
Settlement rejected In February 2006, the board unanimously rejected a settlement offer that would have required renaming Christmas and Easter breaks to winter and spring, respectively, and to put a Dobrich child at the top of a waiting list for an arts school. It would have permitted board members to continue praying at their meetings. (US District Judge Joseph J. Farnan, Jr., who is hearing the case, ruled last year that the prayer was a historic tradition and could continue.)
In April the board's insurance company, which had been representing the district in the lawsuit, filed suit against it (and the individual board members) because they had, against its advice, rejected the settlement offer. The board then fired the attorneys that had been representing them and hired a new set. The insurance company is reportedly refusing to pay for the board's legal defense from the date the members rejected the settlement offer.
According to the Coastal Point, the insurance company's complaint is sealed, as is the district's response. The district's taxpayers, who will pay the bill if the insurer prevails, cannot know the details of the case.
Attorney Thomas Allingham, who represents the Dobrich family in their case against the school district, says the board's behavior suggests it was not negotiating in good faith. Allingham told JewsOnFirst that several board members attended the settlement negotiations, which were under the auspices of a federal mediator. He said the members approved the settlement during those negotiations. But, when the board voted on the offer, they rejected it unanimously.
Allingham said the plaintiffs remained open to the possibility that the case could be settled. But the case is set for trial in June 2007 in Wilmington.
Board prayer allowed with settlement
By Jonathan Starkey, Coastal Point (Sussex County, Delaware), June 16, 2006
A settlement offered by the plaintiffs in the Dobrich/Doe prayer suit and denied unanimously by the Indian River School board on Feb. 27 would have allowed board members to continue opening monthly meetings with a prayer, a board member and two other sources close to the case told the Coastal Point. Click here for the report (a PDF file).
School board to discuss religion policy
By Jonathan Starkey, Coastal Point (Sussex County, Delaware), June 23, 2006
The policies regarding prayer at graduations and religion in school that were adopted by the Indian River School Board on Oct. 19, 2004, after they heard complaints from a Jewish family, might be amended next week.
The board held a first reading on the amended ordinances Tuesday but deferred a vote until after an executive session on Tuesday, June 27. Board members and district Superintendent Lois Hobbs wouldn’t comment on the specifics of the proposed amendments. Click here for the report (a PDF file).
School prayer lawsuit filed against district
By Sean O'Sullivan, Gannett News Service, Delaware Wave, March 2, 2005
Two sets of parents filed a federal lawsuit in Wilmington on Monday that seeks to bar the Indian River School District from promoting religion at school functions.
The parents, who also are seeking damages, claim in the lawsuit that their rights to free speech and to be free from state-sponsored religion have been violated.
We didn't want a lawsuit, but at this point we feel like we don't have any other choice, said Mona Dobrich, one of the parents, in a statement provided by attorney Thomas J. Allingham. We are not trying to remove God from the schools or the public square. We simply don't think it is right for the district to impose a particular religious view on impressionable students. Continue
School district disputes lawsuit
By Sean O'Sullivan, Gannett News Service, Delaware Wave, May 4, 2005
WILMINGTON -- Indian River school officials have filed papers in federal court denying virtually every claim in a Jewish family's lawsuit over school-sponsored Christian prayer.
John Balaguer, attorney for the school district, also asked a U.S. District judge to strike large sections of the complaint as immaterial, impertinent and scandalous.
Balaguer said the items were included solely to cast the district in a negative light. Continue
ACLU Sues to Stop School Board Prayer: Dobrich v. Walls
Rutherford Institute website entry on the Dobrich case.
JOF note: the ACLU is not involved in the case!
Attorneys for The Rutherford Institute have asked the U.S. District Court for the District of Delaware to dismiss a lawsuit recently filed by the ACLU against Reginald Helms in his official capacity as a member of the Indian River School District Board of Education. The lawsuit, which was filed by the ACLU in February 2005 against school board members in their personal and professional capacities, alleges that school- sponsored prayer “has pervaded the life of teachers and students” in the Indian River District schools. In their motion to have the case dismissed, Institute attorneys argue that as a school board member, Helms should have immunity from liability claims under the established doctrine of absolute legislative immunity.
An official with the Indian River School District Board of Education contacted The Rutherford Institute for help in August 2004, after the Wilmington, Del., branch of the ACLU demanded that IRSD board members stop opening their monthly business meetings with a prayer. Attorneys for The Rutherford Institute agreed to represent Reginald Helms, vice president of the IRSD Board of Education, in his individual capacity should the Delaware school district’s practice of opening meetings with a brief prayer be challenged. Despite pressure from the Wilmington chapter of the ACLU to cease issuing prayers at public events, officials with the IRSD opened a school board meeting on Aug. 24, 2004, with a brief invocation. Several hundred members of the community gathered at Frankford Elementary School for the monthly business meeting broke into applause after Board President Harvey Walls asked board member Dr. Donald G. Hattier to lead the board in a word of prayer. Hattier read a prayer given by George Washington during the Revolutionary War. During the business meeting, the board also issued a first reading of a policy concerning school prayer at baccalaureate and commencement ceremonies, which states that student-initiated, student-delivered, voluntary messages may be permitted during graduation ceremonies. Thomas Neuberger, a Rutherford affiliate attorney with the Neuberger Firm, which is based in Wilmington, Del., is defending school board member Reginald Helms against the ACLU’s lawsuit. (link)
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The Nazis and Adolf Hitler are commonly thought of as representing the antithesis of Christianity an
America and Britain will rewrite history to suit themselves.......Just like Ws history will be rewritten to hide the fact that he was a major disaster for this country.
Yes killing this country - have you been out of the country the last 3 months or so
Don't you have a clue as to what is happening in America? Where have you been? Don't you listen to what is happening or are you still drinking the kool-aid. That time is over. Put the aid down and wake up. The country is being destroyed. These have been the worst 4 months in the history of bad presidents. Foreclosures are on the rise, unemployment is on the rise, 3+ trillion more in deficit and on the rise, companies shutting down, Clinton for SoS. Napolitano - one of the biggest tragedies to happen to America. The list goes on and on and on and on.
Dubya is not in office anymore. You think dubya "pulled the trigger", well the O keeps reloading it and continues to pull the trigger.
You mean Christians.
Is that what you are talking about? What other board?
That may be so....but Christians, at least the ones I know...
do not want to control the government. And too many times a strictly moral issue is ascribed to a "religious nut." Take abortion for example. There are nonreligious people who are against abortion, strictly on moral grounds, that it is wrong to kill innocent life. There are liberals who are against abortion for that reason...their reasoning is that you can't be against war because it kills and be for abortion, because it kills. That is their reasoning. For me, the basic moral precept of not committing murder should apply to the unborn as well as the "born" and that basic moral precept is enhanced by my faith. Everything I know about Jesus tells me his heart breaks every time an abortion occurs. Because of my faith, my heart also hurts for those millions of lives ended. People talk on and on and on about individual freedoms...yet walk all over the most basic of those...the right to life. Somehow people think they have the right to choose whether someone gets to live or not live. And I think that is way too much power...for one individual to have over the life of another. In any other case of that, when a person exercises that kind of power...it is illegal, it is wrong, it is murder, or manslaughter, or whatever you want to call it. And then you get into the business of defining when life starts. It is just my opinion that that is not a decision that is up to us. And an opinion I am entitled to. People protest the death penalty. No one calls them fanatics. To me there is no difference...lethal injection, abortion. Both kill. Sure, one has comitted a crime, which only makes the other more heinous. What crime did that developing child commit?
I do not say that to start an abortion thread. It is just to illustrate a point. I, as a Christian, believe in a moral code. I believe you should care about your fellow man, and churches in this country used to take care of the poor and weak in this country, before such a thing as a social program. No one had to force us to do it, we just did it. That kind of serving attitude, in my opinion, is good in public servants. They do need to serve a cause greater than themselves, and in their case I am not saying it is God. I am saying it is the American people. If more lawmakers listened to their Christian teachings they would do so. Not just serving God in their everyday lives, but serving the American people, because that is their job.
I agree it is not up to lawmakers to project their beliefs on an entire nation. Again there is the issue of abortion. That is not a "religious" issue. It is a moral issue...there are many nonreligious people who believe that it is wrong. Just like people believe other things are wrong and seek to legislate against those. Not from "religious" grounds, but moral grounds.
And you shouldn't characterize all Christians with the radicals. We are exhorted not to characterize all Muslims as terrorists. Just afford Christians the same courtesy, that's all I am saying.
no wonder christians have a bad name
Wow, aren't you a little smarty pants. So glad the whole world isn't just like you. I'm a Jew, we believe G-d's name is sacred and don't like to write it out unless it is going to be protected. Maybe you should go to h*ll because you don't seem to be a good example of how a christian should behave.
I have faith in G-d, and my people have for many, many years, long before there was a Jesus.
believe abortion is murder are just religious quacks trying to push their religious beliefs on others? You don't have to be Christian to believe that abortion is wrong.
I do believe that there are some Christians out there who do turn more people away from religion than bringing them to it because of the way they go about it. But having religion and believing in things doesn't mean that we should have to give up our beliefs because someone else does not any more than you should have to put up with religion when you don't believe. This is where we have the problem.
I think abortion has to be a give and take kind of thing. I personally feel that it is wrong, however, I would be willing to compromise for the sake of meeting in the middle with people who believe it is a personal choice and not murder. I am 100% against late-term abortions as I feel there is no other word for that than MURDER. However, I could live with the early abortions. I have no problem with the morning after pill as to me that isn't much different than the birth control pill.
I just feel that there are people on the far right who need to unwind their panties..but I also believe that there are some far left people who need to do so themselves.
This is kind of like smokers versus non-smokers. Smokers feel they have the right to light up wherever they want because that is their right. However, non-smokers have a right to breathe clean air. So which one is right? Who rights are infringed upon?
Abortion is another subject where not everyone will be completely happy with. No matter what decision is made, people are going to complain. I just wish that we could somehow meet in the middle. Allow early term, deny late-term unless it is a life/death situation and just shut up about it.
This was a very misfortunate event, but it was just an example of cult worship and weak minded people that killed their own children. I have no respect for people who kill children - NONE!
Christians?
I would have to wonder about that. Christians worship Jesus/God. Those people worshiped Jones, though they claimed to be Christians. Christianity is not a cult.
True Christians?!?!?
This is JOKE, right?? An article out of MAD Magazine or something???
I wish they would be real Christians. Just once.
It's very hard to understand how those who cheer war, torture and the fleecing of the poor think that their values are Jesus-oriented. It is scary to think what they have made of Jesus in their own minds, to believe he is applauding what they do.
Christians do that, not Muslims.
You state regarding Obama...He's linked with Ahmedinejad and therefore if he gets elected they will have an open invitation to come and get us and turn everyone into a muslim.
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