That is a valid argument. Thank you
Posted By: for sharing your thoughts. on 2009-02-18
In Reply to: I still think - sbMT
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See link...not saying whether it is valid or not - asking you sm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm
You have a very valid point........
I've noticed on this board alone that if anything is said against Obama, you MUST be a racist! So, unfortunately, on this board at least and probably over the country, if anything is said that opposes Obama, you will be called a racist because that's all they know to do.
Obama wants you to be dependent on the government for all your needs, as so many already do where I live. He will do absolutely nothing to help you, but will only make it worse. Most of us with any common sense know full well you can't help anyone by continuing to keep them down. Obama has every intentio of not only doing just that but bringing in the middle class as well to become dependent on the government, thereby empowering government to become more powerful.......
Unfortunately, I have noticed so many on this board actually believe the government's job is to POLICE their lives. They don't have a clue what their constitution says, what it means, and they actually believe BIGGER government means a better life for them. Most of those that scream racist on this board are just plain lame and very sad indeed and they know nothing else! Working hard to pay your bills seems to fall on deaf ears with those that think free handouts are a blessing. They don't have a clue about the American spirit and no doubt couldn't recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the star spangled banner without looking at the words......
and I say the same....go ahead and flame away. I truly couldn't care less.
I do think these are valid concerns...(sm)
and ones that have to be addressed. However, I don't see anything wrong with setting a goal, which is what Obama has done by saying it should be closed in 1 year. I think he purposely left himself some leeway by saying a year, and at the same time let people like me who support him that it will get done.
Personally I think they should be tried in a military court, which would avoid a lot of the bureaucracy that is associated with the regular US court system. They may want to go by the world court rules when trying them? You're right. Noone knows exactly how this is going to be done yet, but we all know that something has to be done.
As far as housing them here, I don't see a problem with that. Right now we house murderers, rapists, and some of the worst criminals immaginable. I don't think that these prisoners from Gitmo would pose anymore of a threat that some that are already there. However, I do think that Gitmo prisoners would have a really hard time in a prison here because of other prisoners.
Obviously, there is a lot to be worked out, especially when it comes to those in Gitmo who are actually guilty, but there has to be something done soon about the ones who aren't.
That is a valid point to consider
but what about those pregnant woman who are murdered and they are pregnant and the murderer is charge with double homicide. Why is the killing of a fetus okay in one circumstance but considered murder in another. LOL! It starts to get confusing when you look at every little thing.
I just think abortion is something that does need some form of guidelines.
What's missing is a valid premise.
nm
It is a valid political issue.
"We people" do not consider it a bunch of tissue. We believe, as does YOUR VP candidate, that life begins at conception.
you posed some valid points
I honestly have to tell you I read your post with an open mind and I understand what you are saying. I don't think we can go to war with everyone and I don't think we should. But on the other hand I think there has to be a better way of just thinking your going to be able to sit down with the most extreme who hate Americans and want to see our country destroyed and believe that by just talking with them they'll become our friends and say, "yes your right, we've been wrong all along, what can we do to help you" (well not exactly in those words), but I just think that for someone to think your going to be able to sit and reason with them is a little naive. Look what happened when we tried to reason with Saddam Hussein. He would not reason and threatened us with nuclear and biological weapons. He destroyed wildlife, oceans, and set his own oil fields ablaze. I think we do have to be strong and we need other countries to stand with us. To tell you the truth I don't know what a good solution would be, and I'll tell you one thing I do know is that whether John McCain or Barack Obama gets elected they are going to have one big mess to try and fix.
O has already provided valid evidence and
fanatics to hound and stalk him like hunted prey. Fanatics also unsuccessfully tried to use the guilt by association argument to win the election. It did not work then and is will not help them now.
Four years ago makes it no less valid and...
You are operating under the false assumption that we have had a "free market" over the past four years.
email petitions are not valid - nm
x
Starcat made a very valid point.
You don't tolerate irresponsibility when it comes to pet owners (which I agree with, by the way), yet you seem to welcome it when it comes to your political party. One has to ask why you continue to sing the praises of and support the most irresponsible administration in US history, yet you express outrage about a cat owner. Just doesn't make sense.
And as far as you being tolerant, one only needs to take a quick look at the conservative board to see how laughable that really is. You and your cohorts post the most intolerant posts I've ever seen anywhere on the internet.
I do agree with you about pet owners being responsible. I am a pet owner and keep my pets under control simply because I love them and want to keep them safe.
I agree - it's a valid issue - for the WOLF.
.
I think I meant to say you "posted" some valid points
It's late and I'm tired and been typing since 7:30 am, so fingers are getting tired.
valid points and YES, people are buying
concerning, huh?
What? She has a valid question and stating facts.
nm
Make sure your complaints are valid before spewing them.
nm
Like lack of a valid birth certificate and that he...sm
would absolutely in no uncertain terms allow pork barrel projects? I could go on and on about the FACTS as the liberals see it, but by my dictionary - and without regard to news media or the channels thereof - these are NOT facts! Just wait - you'll find out for yourself. I'll be right here to tell you "I tried to tell you so!"
More media mantra does not a valid point make.
nm
Wow...good post. Lots of valid questions...
First and foremost...lower taxes equal better economy. We have to figure out a way to improve things without tax, tax, tax. I don't care WHO they tax. Fact is, over 90% of the total tax bill in this country is paid by the so-called rich. I am not in any way rich, but I think if they are bearing 90% of the burden already, that is enough. The government has to learn to live within its means. Sticking a windfall profits tax on oil companies when we are paying what we are paying at the pump is just nuts to me, but that is what Obama wants to do. And then redistribute that money to people (who did nothing to earn it) for whatever reason he wants to do it. Yes, people will have a little money to spend on gas, but gas will only go higher as a result of the tax...so I do not see a win there.
As to public education...my personal opinion is if they stopped building Taj Mahal schools (that look like the Pentagon) and spend more money on actually educating the children...less opulent buildings and paying teachers more...we would see better results. The state I live in has ridiculous property taxes which go directly into the school systems and yes we have school buildings that rival the best architecture around...but our graduate rate and testing scores is way down. You would think that would tell people something, wouldn't you? That maybe opulent buildings don't translate into a good education? I don't know what the answer to that is. Obviously writing letters and calling people does no good...have tried both.
As to socialized medicine...I think that would be a horror. For a multitude of reasons. We hve the best health care in the world, that's why leaders of other countries bring their families here to be treated. We have the premier schools and treatment facilities. How many foreign physicians are trained here? I think we all know the answer to that. They tried it in Massachusetts (state run health care), and while it was a good program on paper, it was doomed to fail. They are millions in the hole. The inevitable end of socialized medicine. When they can't meet the bills, taxes will have to go up or jobs will be lost, services will be cut...that is the way it goes and i would rather not sacrifice the quality of health care on the altar of getting it free.
I agree that there should be some regulation and oversight of insurance companies to get premiums into the real world, that's for sure. And whatever programs that remain to make sure children are insured need to be monitored for abuse. they don't need to institute programs that cannot be monitored. That makes no sense fiscally or any other way.
One thing I would like to see is a flat income tax. A straight across the board percentage with no deductions. No loopholes. No nothing. That way everyone pays the same percentage of their income, no matter what that income is. That is what I would like to see. The government would save millions in processing costs alone.
As to how do you know who is being sincere and who is just making campaign promises? They are both just making campaign promises. They will follow through on a few of them, most of them they won't. History tells you that. Politicians basically tell you what they think you want to hear. My take on it is the campaign promises that most closely follow what i want for the country, my family, that follows my value system, is the man/woman I am going to vote for. So if just a few of the things that are promised come to fruition, that is a good thing.
On the other hand, voting for someone who does not share my value system, is for things I think will be bad for the country...on the face of it...a no win there. No pluses to go there.
But that is just me.
A valid point. Substitute "NeoCon" for repub
nm
Maybe she will when Obamarama produces a valid birth certificate. nm
nm
Eloquent post. Many valid reasons why I hope
Some of the sweetest and most devoted couples I know are same-sex. They pay taxes, are all highly educated and make my community a better place. They adore their children, their pets, their friends. To think they're denied the simple right of marriage, is heartbreaking.
Interestingly, I only have only one couple of friends who are married, who are same RACE. All the rest are black & white, white & Asian, Asian & Latino, Filippino and black, etc. I remember back when I was a teen, my parents actually didn't want me hanging out with a certain friend because her parents were a mixed-race couple. They thought it was 'scandalous'.
Well, that has all changed, and you better believe that every vote I cast will hopefully work towards bringing about equality in marriage for ALL couples.
LOL No argument s/m
I'm neither Democrat or Republican, I usually call myself independent. I march to my own drum. I would have liked to have seen 2 different candidates than what we had. I would have liked to see a true Christ-like man, humble and honest in his/her campaign...i.e. the "Straight Talk Express" which McCain claimed to have and didn't.
I simply voted AGAINST the man who bragged that he had voted "with the president over 90% of the time, more than even his Republican colleagues." We certainly need change. I know I haven't fared so well under Bush. All is not lost for those who think Obama is a monster if he in fact turns out to be what he's been accused of being. . Remember Richard Nixon?
you win the argument
If you like Bush you are a rare person indeed. His approval rating is 26%.
So now is your time to shine because your guy is still in charge and you should enjoy it.
Yes, anything to make an argument...sm
No pun intended to reality check, but yes anything can turn into an argument. Yep.
Why don't you take your little argument over to the CON board.
You can con each other on the CON board. How's that?
So is posting the same argument.
I remind you that the monitor recently posted we could cross-post, as we have had liberals on the conservative board, as long as the posts were not bashing.
Wow, that's a good argument....
it is not a personal choice. There are two people involved, one of whom has NO choice. Not fair.
Is that your only argument for socialism?
My word....people are committing adultery on both sides of the fence, that will never change. What in the world does that have to do with socialism and socialists candidate?
But you have made your argument here FOR
You already know where Obama stands. He has said outright he will raise taxes to pay for more social programs. He wants to tell you how to get your healthcare. I agree we definitely need to do something about healthcare but then that could be easily done if the fat cats on capitol hill, including Obama, would stop insurance lobbyists and make it illegal for lobbying....period!!! They then would have to make it more affordable or they will not have a business to run in the first place.
I too would like to see our troops come home from Iraq but not give that money to Obama because it will be wasted faster than you can blink and on what? More socialist programs...
If you look deep into what Obama hasn't detailed in his healthcare plan, you will see that you WILL be paying DEEPLY for it. He has managed to waltz around the details of his plan, which include HUGE tax hikes to pay for that wonderful healthcare he wants to give you.
With the two candidates I am left to choose from, I choose a capitalist over a socialist any day. I'm about to believe Obama would sell his soul to the devil to get in that position.
Okay, that argument aside, here's a legitimate
What will be your thoughts, and more importantly - your ACTIONS - if the candidate of your choice doesn't win?
Where do you go from there?
Do you have a plan as to what you will do, or not do, or change, or flee, if your candidates lose the election?
I can see both sides of the argument
Yes, many people are getting threatened and businesses getting picketed for supporting Prop 8. You cannot deny that (what was the pink taliban or whatever that disrupted church service a month or so ago?)
But on the other hand, if they want these donations anonymous, than that means Obama and other politicians can make their donations anonymous, and I think it's the publics right to know who is financing the next leaders of the country.
I just find it interesting that the homosexuals are assaulting and threatening supporters of the Prop 8 for what they believe in when they themselves are asking for fair treatment for what they believe in.
You don't do your argument any good
by talking down to people. The point I gathered from the the Bloomberg article seems to state what many have said and that is that with all the spending the government has done and will continue to do, the government could have paid off almost all mortgages and settled what was touted as the root cause of all the problems, the subprime mess.
Bailouts don't work, handouts don't work, the free market does.
With one mistake after another, rookie Obama's decisions and policies demonstrate one thing only and that is his stimulus package is political payback instead of finding genuine solutions. The vagueness of his campaign speechmaking was the work of a hollow wordsmith after all.
"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle."
-Winston Churchill
I am so sick of this argument
All that clause means is that their will be no state sponsored religion - like saying everyone has to be Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic. It had nothing to do with taking God out of the white house or supreme court or anywhere else! The only reason that happened is because Christians just sat by and didn't say anything while everyone else whined about it and now it's too late to reverse all that because the mindset now is "oh we have to have separation of church and state!"
Of course as greedy and grimy as politicians are these days they probably feel better thinking that God doesn't pay attention to politics!
Here's some quotes from the founding fathers:
William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
I heard that argument..(sm)
They're saying they'll have to raise taxes when the extended benefits run out. This doesn't make sense to me. If while they are receiving extended benefits they are creating jobs with the other aspects of the stimulus, wouldn't the total bill for unemployment go down?
Not a good argument...(sm)
I could just as easily say that if you believe in the sanctity of life so much, why are you willing to torture and kill others.
That argument won't work because most people who are pro-choice do not believe that life begins at conception.
Ah, the persecuted Christian argument. Please.............
That was the argument in 1960. We didn't buy it then and we are...sm
not buying it now almost 50 years later. Religion should have no part of politics any more than race, gender or anything else that has no bearing on whether a person can lead.
That whole "blood for oil" argument is garbage.
nm
An argument for redistribution of wealth
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm
FY 2007
Total tax revenues for FY 2007 are composed of:
1. Individual income tax 45%.
Included in individual income tax category are capital gains taxes, which make up between 4% and 7% of individual income tax revenues and between 2% and 3% of total tax revenues within this category.
2. Payroll taxes 35%
Social insurance (Social Security). Funds used to pay for Federal Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance, Unemployment Insurance, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, Medicare/Medicaid, State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI). Individual's share of this is 17.5%.
3. Corporate Income Tax 15%
4. Excise Tax 3%.
Essentially a consumer tax on alcohol, cigarettes and gas.
5. "Other" 2%
So, individuals' share of total tax revenues amounts to approximately 65.5%, employers 17.5% and corporations 15% plus the mysterious "other" of 2%.
If you go to the above link and scroll down about halfway, you will find a nifty little chart that shows how much the share corporations paid into total tax revenues has diminshed since 1950. For example, an early 50s spike on the graph show corporations' share to be approximately 30+%...TWICE AS MUCH AS IT IS NOW.
A couple of other points of interest:
http://www.sba.gov/ADVO/laws/statement07_0309.html
"…tax compliance costs employers with less than 20 employees a total of $1304 per employee as compared to employers with 500 or more employees which incur $780 per employee to comply with Federal taxes.(6) Put another way, small entities pay 40% more for tax compliance than employers with 500 or more employees.
http://www.cbpp.org/8-9-05bud.htm
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities – How Robust was 2001-2007 Economic Expansion? Figures 1 and 2 will indicate the following information:
Based on the 7 economic indicators, Bush years turned in below average growth percentages in every single indicator except for one….CORPORATE PROFITS. The biggest losers….employment (JOBS) and wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS). To make this dry economic data a little bit spicier, 2 comparisons have been shown…Bush years against Post WWII averages and Bush years as compared to the 90s decade. I have run averages on the trough and peak growth comparison data depicted in Figure 2 to come up with the following overall percentages. Pay special attention to the last 3 items.
1. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) down 31% from Post WWII average and down 12.85% from the 90s
2. Consumption down 23.45% from Post WWII average and down 6.25% from the 90s
3. Non-residential fixed investment down 40% from Post WWII average and down 58% from the 90s
4. Net worth down 16.25% from Post WWII average and down 20.1% from the 90s
5. Wages and salaries (PAYCHECKS) down a whopping 55.6% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 40.55% from the 90s
6. Employment (JOBS) down an amazing 68.65% from Post WWII average and down an impressive 46.65% from the 90s
7. Corporate profits up 200% above post WWII average and up 126% from the 90s.
From where I sit, there is clearly something wrong with this picture. I will be voting for the candidate who shares this view and plans to restore a more balanced, equitable and FAIR distribution of wealth. This is not about shifting bucks from one person to another. This is about corporations whose butts are being bailed out right and left by us Joe Shmoes shouldering more fiscal responsibility toward their shareholders AND toward John Q. Public.
Citizenship argument...another red herring on
Get over yourself.
The closing argument that lifts us up
what it really means to be an American. No amount of harsh rhetoric or divisive tactics can touch the hope I hold nor the joy I take in knowing that the country I love, which has lost so much of late, is still there, is on the mend and that better and brighter days are just around the bend.
Good argument for the 10% threshold. :) nm
nm
What kind of good solid argument is that?
All I saw was a good article assessing the state of our emergency readiness and the conservative comes back with nyah nyah, a guy got shot, hope you're happy.
Is that what anyone calls good solid argument?
I just knew some people would make this into an argument
I just thought it was pretty cool and on the lighter side. But...as usual, some people just want to argue.
Your argument does not hold a drop of water.
Number one. No they wouldn't...journalists are like lawyers...they don't rat out their sources. It is a question of professional integrity. Furthermore, the LA Times went into great detail to describe precisely what was on the video. No cigar on that media bias whining. This is what happens when campaigns declare war on the media, keep their VP pick on a short leash, avoid one-on-one interviews like the plaque and squeal out loud when the rogue goes off script. The media would not be having a field day if there weren't such an abundant pool of news stories being generated daily by this pathetically mismanaged and misguided camp.
Since when is the International REPUBLICAN Institute, chaired by McCain, the REBPULICAN presidential candidate apolitical? Explain this to me, please. The Center for PALESTINIAN Research and Study...apolitial? On what planet is the subject of Palestine apolitical? Seriously, can you point out any Palestinian living either in OCCUPIED Palestine or in the diapora who is NOT political. If it weren't political, there would have been no exchange of funds. Not at all the same as what...a little incoherent here.
The "meeting" was a farewell dinner for Khalidi held at a Palestinian community center in Chicago for this American born, Yale graduate, Oxford University Doctor of Philosophy, former professor and director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago, current professor at Columbia University. He is a member of the National Advisory Committee of the US INTERreligious Committee for Peace in the Middle East...a national organization of Jews, Christians and Muslims. He is also a member of the Board of Sponsors of the Palestine-Israel Journal, a publication founded by prominent Palestinian and ISRAELI journalists.
Radical Israel hater? Sam, this may come as a shock to you, but Palestinians take great pride in crossing cultures and religions for the sake of garnering peace in their war-torn country. You need help interpreting what Obama meant by "showing me my own personal bias." This is what occurs when people cross cultures, talk to one another, listen to points of view other than their own and start the process of coming to terms with the ethnocentric bias they carry around from their own cultures. I know exactly what he means. It is precisely the quality an effective foreign policy leader need to have to make effective diplomatic inroads. If you want to make something suspicious and subversive out of that....be my guest. In the absence of the tape, Sam, just how is it that you claim to know precisely what transpired during that farewell dinner?
Notably absence from you post is any direct comment on the fact that Chairman McCain's IRI funded the organization that Khalidi founded for 2 years in a row. If he is the Jew hater you suggest he is, then wouldn't that mean that once again, Chairman McCain had a vetting deficit?
Rabid rants will not support your argument.
with anything. Rememer the burden of proof thingy in the courts? Why do you think Berg the Boob is suing on grounds of "standing" and alleged "harm"...claims that thus far have been laughed out of court?
Another argument based on false premise.
underpinnings of our democracy? Here's a clue just for you. What is the function of the Supreme Court? Since when do the 3 branches of our govt NOT interpret the constitution? This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with the ignorance you seem to feel compelled to display, and dern proudly, I might add.
Before you try to tell the rest of us how we should be thinking and such, perhaps you should be addressing your own severe afflictions, starting with your blind hatred.
Wow, that was a powerful, cogent, scholarly argument!..................nm
nm
The fire safety argument is a lot of hooey.
Is it more of a fire hazard just because more than 15 people meet on a regular basis than if someone has a single party for 30 people?
As long as you and the other wiccans are clothed and no open-burning laws are being broken (in a residential area, that would be a fire hazard) I would have no particular problem with your rituals. Depending on the time of day/night and loudness of chanting, it might constitute a disturbance of the peace, same as a loud barbecue party in the neighborhood. But with the basic concept of your meeting, no big deal.
sam, weak argument based on semantics, that reporter's
implication was all too clear, and just another stupid accusation in order to mislead yet more uneducated, misinformed voters.
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