Please support your claim with a credible link. nm

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Bush was duly elected by electoral vote. The electoral college is the way our elections were designed to be conducted. Plenty of time to have constitutionally changed the system if that's what we wanted to do.

The 2000 election was the third time in US history the electoral vote trumped the popular vote. All three ended in Republican victories. The other two were in the 1800s. How was this stealing?

The Kennedy/Nixon election was the narrowest popular vote margin in US history (1/10 of a percent in Kennedy's favor.) Nixon actually won more states (26 versus 22) but Kennedy had more electoral votes. A real squeaker of a Democrat victory this time.

There has been more than enough time since this first happened in 1877, again in 1889, and almost again in 1961 to amend the constitution. Don't get into a competition, the rules of which are clear, then whine about those rules when you lose.

...in your Iraq stance you would be over there as part of the fight. End of story. No buts, no excuses. You would be over there and not relying on teenage kids and reservists to do your fighting for you.

Likewise, our powers that be (no names mentioned) would have multiple family members over there also. No buts, no excuses, no whining. But of course, they don't.

But of course, your butt sits in your comfy chair in your house as well as our Washington bosses' butts. And you sit in your chair belittling someone who does not support this war, or any war, and does what she can to help peace world-wide. She is an activist, you are not. You are merely a cheerleader for a violent cause as long as it does not involve you directly.

My boyfriend says the ultra-rights are angry cowards. What I have seen illustrated on the conservative board makes me think he is 100 percent correct.

Until they make the "documents" public, as they should, I cant believe everything this lady says .

"Ms. MonCrief admits that she left after she began paying back some $3,000 in personal expenses she charged on an Acorn credit card. "I was very sorry, and I was paying it back," she says"

Sorry, but she has reason to point the finger away from her. If this is all true, where are the documents to prove it? Where is the court transcript, where is the paper trail for the public to view. This is reporting, just like reporting about the Keating 5 and other issues that arise on both sides. Facts are NOT facts just because someone writes a news piece.

What I would tend NOT to believe is government figures as to how many are out there. I know for a fact that a friend of mine in 2000 received $2,000 per month from the VA, in addition to Social Security benefits of a few more hundred dollars, for his PTSD disability, along with free medication from the VA to the tune of 200 5-mg Valiums per month in addition to 200 15-mg Serax tablets per month.

I have no idea what today's monthly payments are to these veterans. After repeated unsuccessful attempts to commit suicide on the pills the VA gave him (with the full knowledge of the VA), he finally succeeded in 2000 and is no longer with us.

I know firsthand what the effects of this disease are. It's not conjecture. It's fact.

As far as a credible site, how about this VETERANS site?

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&id=2468&NoMenu=1

Battling the Effects of War

Combat can wound the mind. New science helps vets from Iraq to cope

By Peg Tyre

Newsweek

December 6, 2004

It wasn't the gunshot wound in the arm that bothered Jose Hernandez when he returned home to Cincinnati after serving in Iraq. It was the lock on the front door. He couldn't relax until he secured it twice, three times and sometimes more. Even then he was still on edge. "I kept thinking about the things I saw over there�shooting on the streets, dead bodies and the terror in people's eyes. I couldn't get it out of my mind," says Hernandez, who served in the Army's 101st Airborne Division. He stopped sleeping, withdrew from friends and dropped plans to go back to college. His girlfriend finally demanded that he get help. A Veterans Administration psychiatrist diagnosed Hernandez with posttraumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, a potentially crippling mental condition caused by extreme stress.

Hernandez says he was one of the lucky ones. With a combination of antianxiety medication and talk therapy, his symptoms have begun to fade. Many of the 170,000 men and women now returning from Iraq and Afghanistan may not be as fortunate. When they get home, tens of thousands of them will be grappling with psychological problems such as PTSD, anxiety, mood disorders and depression. Though scientists are learning just how trauma affects the brain�and how best to help patients heal�there are still many obstacles to getting the treatment to the people who need it most. For starters, no one knows how many soldiers will be affected or how serious their problems will become. Early in the war the Army surveyed 3,671 returning Iraq veterans and found that 17 percent of the soldiers were already suffering from depression, anxiety and symptoms of PTSD.

Experts say those numbers are likely to grow. A study of Vietnam veterans conducted in 1980 found that 30 percent suffered from an anxiety condition later dubbed PTSD. Experts say the protracted warfare in Iraq�with its intense urban street fighting, civilian combatants and terrorism�could drive PTSD rates even higher. National Guard members, who make up 40 percent of the fighting force, with less training and less cohesive units, may be more vulnerable to psychological injuries than regular soldiers. Last year 5,100 soldiers who fought in Iraq or Afghanistan sought treatment in VA clinics for PTSD. That figure is expected to triple.

PTSD, a specific diagnosis, is not the only psychological damage soldiers can sustain. And experts say that mental disorders can make the already rugged transition from military to civilian life a harrowing one. Soldiers can experience depression, hypervigilance, insomnia, emotional numbing, recurring nightmares and intrusive thoughts. And in many cases, the symptoms worsen with time, leaving the victims at higher risk for alcohol and drug abuse, unemployment, homelessness and suicide. Sometimes families can become collateral damage. Christine Hansen, executive director of the Miles Foundation, which runs a hot line for domestic-violence victims in the military, says that since start of the Iraq war, calls have jumped from 50 to more than 500 a month.

Without treatment, some conditions such as chronic PTSD can be lethal. Five years after the Vietnam War, epidemiologists studying combat veterans found that they were nearly twice as likely to die from motor-vehicle accidents and accidental poisoning than veterans who didn't see combat. In a 30-year follow up, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine this year, the same combat vets continued to die at greater rates and remained especially vulnerable to drug overdose and accidental poisoning. "We had the John Wayne syndrome," says Vietnam veteran Greg Helle, who grappled with severe PTSD for decades. "We were men, we'd been to war. We thought we could tough it out." Doctors hadn't developed effective treatment for PTSD and besides, says Helle, seeking help was an admission of weakness.

Doctors now know that PTSD is the product of subtle biological changes that occur in the brain in response to extreme stress. Using sophisticated imaging techniques, researchers now believe that extreme stress alters the way memory is stored. During a major upheaval, the body releases massive doses of adrenaline which speeds up the heart, quickens the reflexes and, over several hours, burns vivid memories that are capable of activating the amygdala, or fear center, in the brain. People can get PTSD, doctors say, when that mechanism works too well. Instead of creating protective memories (ducking at the sound of gunfire), says Dr. Roger Pitman, a psychiatry professor at Harvard Medical School, "the rush of adrenaline creates memories that intrude on everyday life and without treatment, can actually hinder survival."

Why some people get PTSD and others don't remains a mystery. Recent studies suggest that a predisposition to the disorder may be genetic and that previous traumatic experiences can make soldiers more vulnerable to it. Once a soldier has it, though, says Dr. Matthew Friedman, executive director of the Department of Veterans Affairs National Center for PTSD, the good news is that the medical community now knows that "PTSD is very real and very treatable."

The challenge, says Friedman, is getting help�counseling or drug treatment�to veterans who need it most. As the Iraq war continues, officials at the Department of Defense and the VA are scrambling. After a rash of suicides among soldiers, they've increased the number of psychiatrists and psychologists in combat areas. Social workers trained to spot PTSD and other mental disorders are assigned to military hospitals around the country. Primary-care physicians at VA clinics and hospitals are now able to access combat records to see if their patients might be at risk for PTSD. Doctors are issued wallet-size reminders on how to spot PTSD and refer patients for further treatment. The VA has recently hired about 50 veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan to do outreach in the Vet Centers, a system of 206 community-based mental-health clinics around the country. But their resources are limited: Congress has set aside an additional $5 million a year for three years to deal with the new mental-health problem.

VA officials admit they're not catching everyone who needs help. National Guard members often do many tours and can be exposed to more combat than regular soldiers. But instead of rotating back to military bases where they can be monitored, they often return to their hometowns where readjustment problems can become a family crisis. If they begin to exhibit signs of PTSD or other psychological problems, they need to get help quickly. The VA will provide mental-health benefits for them for only two years following their service [The article is incorrect: Vet Center benefits are available for the remainder of a combat veterans life, not just two years; however, some physical care benefits are available for only two years].

Regular soldiers get mental-health benefits indefinitely.

Help came too late for Marine reservist Jeffrey Lucey. In July 2003, he returned home to Belchertown, Mass., from Iraq and gradually sank into a deep depression. His family looked on in anguish as he began drinking too much and isolating himself from their close-knit clan. By spring of 2004, he'd stopped sleeping, eating and attending college. When his sister Debra Lucey tried to have a heart-to-heart, "he'd describe the terrible things he'd seen and done," she says, "and he'd always end by saying 'You'll never be able to understand'." Frantic, family members had him committed to a psychiatric hospital but he was soon released. A few weeks later he crashed the family car, and the following month a neighbor found him wandering the streets in the middle of the night dressed in full camouflage with two battle knives he'd been issued in Iraq. Last June, Jeffrey Lucey hanged himself in the basement of his family home.

Shortly before he died, Lucey talked to an Iraq vet turned counselor at his local Vet Center. "He said he'd found someone who could really understand," says Debra. But before he could keep his next appointment, his demons took hold. Now Debra is telling her brother's story in the hope that others find the help they need in time. Psychological problems, she says, are an enemy that no soldier should face alone.

Can you point me to somewhere on Obama website that gets anywhere close to what this guy is talking about? The youtube was made by some obscure person, NOT showing the alleged speaker at any time. I have found no credible source for "barracks and uniforms" anywhere.

Personally I would support an addition to school curriculums that required community service as part of social studies. A local 4-H club leader called me the other day and asked if I could help her find community service opportunities for her 22 kids. I could and I did. I think before this economic mess is done we'll all help each other or we won't survive. There are a lot of opportunities for input on the Obama website. Time might be better spent flooding that site with your thoughts and concerns rather than posting here. I can promise you that I'm doing my part to flood the suggestion boxs, are you?

I worry more about the Clintons continued involvement in the government....like Ole Bill's "Foundation." .

I have read and researched everything about the birth certificate, his association with Ayers and everything else that was lobbied against him. I have found nothing to hold against him with the exception of preacher Wright and time will tell about that. After looking at the "evidence" on Factcheck, I am convinced his b/c is as credible as my own. I do not believe the Health Department of Hiawaii would have certified it if it were not so.

You can rest assured that I read everything about a subject which troubles me and Obama DID trouble me. Having heard him have news conferences and getting right down to business gives me somewhat more faith in him although I am still not convinced that he can undo what has been done the past 8 years and starting even before that, even if his intentions are squeeky clean. We are in for a VERY rocky road IMHO and we need to move on past the issues that have already been settled. The b/c on Factcheck leaves no doubt it is the real deal and the SC isn't going to find any differently...if they even hear the case. You are aware that they did not order him to produce the b/c by Dec. 1? They actually ordered him to answer...which of course he will do, to do otherwise would cause the complainant to win by default and he is not going to let that happen. It is customary in any court to give the defendent X number of days to answer a complaint. I should think you would know that. They can't "order" him to produce the b/c until there has been a hearing. I expect they will turn these frivilous suits back to the lower courts and refuse to hear any more about it.

I'm sorry I go back to this subject and it might have been discussed but can someone tell me the following. I am really curious because I keep seeing posts with people cutting down others and making fun of them and telling them the sources are not credible, but they will post their own sources. So...

Why is Factcheck (supporters of Obama) more credible than an independent fact checking site?

Why is Keith Olberman, Rachel Maddow, and others liberal talk shows more credible than Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity or other conservative rado shows? (although I can't stand Rush and that little pipsqueek leprechaun Hannity), just wondering why the liberal radio shows are more credible than the conservative.

Why are independently written articles by people who some of them do not reside in the US but watch the political and economic scene here in the US, not credible (even though they are giving their opinions of what they see happening), but if there is a good article written about the liberal politicians those articles are credible.

Why are people made fun of and not called credible because they post articles about UFO's, yet our own Astronauts James Lovell, Frank Borman, and Buzz Aldrin actually did see UFOs when they were in space.

Why will people scream and shout and get so totally upset because Bush has not been impeached (which he should be), but when the people who had the authority to impeach him (Pelosi, Reid and others) never pushed for impeachment the same people screaming for impeachment keep silent.

Okay, my post originally started out to be about why some articles/sources are credible while others are not, but I am curious about the last paragraph and would like to hear people's viewpoints on all the issues.

Why is Factcheck (supporters of Obama) more credible than an independent fact checking site?

I have never claimed that. Did I vote for him....no. Have I given him a chance? What chance is there to give him? Look at what he has done in this short time. I don't want to wait another term in office before I see the huge mistakes that are happening now. And please correct me if I am wrong but I do recall many of you putting Bush down for every little thing that he ever did. I didn't vote for Bush either and I do believe he made some huge mistakes as well. You people have no problem cutting people down and not giving them a chance unless we are talking about Obama and then all of a sudden we are all horrible for opposing government spending MORE of our money. That makes us instantly prejudice.

You ridicule Bush for the war in Iraq and Obama said he would pull our troops out ASAP. We are still there and Obama has pushed back the time line to pull them out. Now we are in Afgan fighting the Taliban....which are the same terrorist freaks we ran out of Iraq. Gitmo is still open with no plan of where to put these terrorists. The usual rules in bankrupcty were changed in Chrysler's dealings so that the unions came out top dog....which is not supposed to happen like that. Obama has spent more money than Bush ever did and he wants to spend more. He promised no taxes of any kind to 95% of Americans and yet he wants to institute cap and trade which will tax everyone. The jobs that he claims will be created with the spendulous package are not sustainable jobs. Only 1 out of 10 green jobs are sustainable long term. He is capping what CEOs can make. He has done nothing but apologize for the US wherever he goes and yet he fails to comment on all the good things that we have done for other countries or how much we gave relief to people after natural disasters. A man who gives abortion rights but takes away the rights of doctors and hospitals to deny performing a procedure they don't believe in when those patients could easily go elsewhere for that particular procedure. Our government is getting bigger and taking over too much. What right does our government have to cap pay for anyone? What right does our goverment have to okay bonuses for AIG and then turn around and demand the bonuses be taken away. I don't agree that they should get bonuses but congress approved it in the first place. Did you sleep through all of this? They are talking about taxing health care benefits to help pay for universal health care when Obama ridiculed McCain during the campaign stating how ridiculous it is for McCain to want to tax someone's benefits.....hello?

ARE YOU LISTENING? How much more time should I give him because I can say that he sucks?

smoke anywhere but you did mention nonsmokers not being content with banning you from smoking in public places and this is a constant argument I had with my dad for many years. A lot of smokers are very inconsiderate. More often than not you see them smoking at ball parks that have no smoking signs just because they think it is their right to smoke no matter how many children are around them at the time. I've been in my car at a stoplight and my car filled with a smell of smoke and I looked over to see the person in the car next to me smoking. Smokers just do not realize how far their smoke carries and how really harmful it is to nonsmokers. Parents who continually take their kids to the doctors for ear infections or respiratory problems and yet continue to smoke around them. My dad used to smoke in the car with all three of us kids in the back but he thought we would be fine because the window was cracked. All that did was blow unwanted ashes back towards us. Amazingly none of us three kids smoke. We all vowed never to pick up the habit and none of us married a smoker either.

I wasn't trying to be rude.....but smoking is a very sore subject with me. Not only did I lose one grandpa to lung cancer and another grandpa to emphysema but I lost my dad 2 years ago to emphysema and I just absolutely HATE cigarettes. To think of the years those stupid things robbed me of my 2 grandpas and my dad.....I just loathe cigarettes.

This morning I was thinking this Rove thing over and the main issue is the deception by this administration over the wanting to buy uranium claim. When Wilson went to check it out and reported back that the claim was incorrect, it still was included in the State of the Union address, to scare the American people into war. That is the main issue, the lies for going to war.

even figure out who's WITH you, as evidenced by the little hissy fit above between you and another CON!!!

Please keep posting. You're getting whackier with each post and revealing yourself for the nut case you truly are!!!

Plus, I'm intrigued by all the different voices in your head who surface at different times. I guess tonight TM is doing the talking, and TM seems to be even more rude and angry and hateful than you usually are.

Why so angry, MT? Roberts was confirmed today. Why aren't you happy? Or do you just have a terminal case of chronic bitterness, no matter what? Have you ever been nice to ANYONE?

PLEASE keep posting. You're quite entertaining, even if in a pathetic sort of way.

...your mind, claim to know how well you "scan," etc. They're the scariest of all.

I wonder how Gourd Painter is doing. Looks like she was chased away by the bullies. Too bad. I enjoyed her perspectives.