LOL! Good reply!!!

• How low can she go? No lower with frozen market. - Housing market report out today. How long...sm
  • can you spell depression? - gourdpainter
    • O - B - A - M - A - sm
      • or M-C-C-A-I-N - gourdpainter
      • LOL! Good reply!!! - Zville MT
    • Not allowed. Pubs haven't learned - how to say the R word yet..r-r-recession. nm
      • My husband and I have been saying - Chele
        • I am voting for O but - shelly

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From hearing John McCain's POW days, it shows me a courageous man who was beaten repeatedly and severely and continued to encourage his fellow POWs as well as refused to be sent home ahead of other men who had been there longer.  What does this say about him?  It tells me that he is a he11 of a bigger man than most.  He has been through the worst of times and survived.  He put others before him.  That is what his story means to me.  So when he says country first.....I believe him.  He has put country first.  Tell me when Obama has put country first!  Show me the changes he has made in the senate that have benefited this country.  Show me when he has stood up to his own party.  Show me the executive decisions he has made. 

To me....Obama is so lacking it isn't even funny.  He lacks in character, integrity, and experience.  His association with certain people and his racist tendencies....that right there is enough for me to say NO TO OBAMA!  His campaign slogan of change is great at at time like this.  Obama is the bringer of false hope. 

McCain & Palin ང 

As far as who can accomplish all these goals -- a journey begins with a single step. Barack is willing to start the journey. McCain stubbornly refuses to change course.   If he does not live up to his hopes - another election in 4 years. 

Experience -- time and time again current events have proven Barack's thoughtfulness and judgment have proven true.  Even the current administration is following the course for a time-table that Barack proposed so long ago.

I do not see Barack as a savior -- I see a fine man with a vision for our country that matches my own.

Throw that hood in the wash, its getting dingy.  12 year olds, we know what you are saying there.

I made no "moral judgment" on SP's premarital pregnancy - merely pointing out the historical precedent she set.

poster says duh?  Exactly.  Overwrought rhetoric destroys the validity of any discussion.

Let me just address a couple of points:

Science isn't a "numbers" game where if you line up 1000 scientists on your side and I line up 1500 on my side, I win.  The history of science is rife with examples of the majority of scientists being wrong.  It might even be argued that at the moment any scientific discovery is made, the person who makes the discovery is, DE facto, a minority of one.   The majority of scientists once thought the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, and that human disease was caused by invisible gases or by imbalance of the "four elements", and scoffed at the notion of "germs". If we left science up to a vote and counted heads to determine what is true, we'd have never moved one inch beyond the stone age.

The real problem, though, is that it really doesn't take much information about the methods used by the "global warmists" (my term) for even a layman to recognize that they are far from conclusive, and in many cases their methods are highly questionable.  And since there is an enormous cost to all of us (or, enormous flow of money to the "warmists") to do battle with this "problem" - if it is one - it only makes sense to get the science right rather than jumping off the deep end and starting a lot of things in process that might very well be entirely unnecessary.  Before we get the villagers all up in arms with torches and pitchforks, let's bother to find out if there really is a dragon in the cave.  So far, I'm afraid that the best we can say is that all we have is rumors and that no one has actually seen the dragon.

Let's not conflate global warming with alternative energy, though.  Although there is some connection, they are really separate issues.  If there is global warming, it seems now that some scientists think that worm flatulence causes more warming than hydrocarbons, so on that basis we should be attacking worms, not fossil fuels. 

Certainly, we should be pursuing every realistic form of alternative energy, but for one simple reason which you have correctly stated:  There is only so much fossil fuel of any kind in the ground.  We're going to run out of it.  This means that even if oil were clean and cheap as water, we must seek alternatives. 

However, oil isn't as cheap as water, and we don't own most of it even if it were, so the second reason we must seek alternatives is that we cannot continue to send $billions to foreign countries, many of whom don't like us very much and who are using our own dollars to finance the operations of our enemies.  It's simply madness to finance our own destruction.

Thought I'd switch back over to this board.

Thanks for your reply to my question about your leaving Florida.  It sounds like a big transition in many ways, both geographically and emotionally.  I had inquired because I have similar thoughts myself and so far I keep moving farther and farther north and away from civilization.   Anyway, good luck and it would be good to hear when you're settled in. 

... I know we don't want to digress, but please stop blaming the fact that we have to resort to these measures on the current administration

Here’s what a lot of us believe:  We don't 'have' to print or borrow money to buy our way out of this mess.  That is the thing most people will not acknowledge.  The mortgage crisis and  the housing ‘bubble’ were caused by government meddling with Fannie/Freddie loan standards. That sent the whole house of cards tumbling and the cascade of threatened failures that resulted.  More government meddling will not fix this.  You cannot shore up a house of cards.  It's still cards.  It should have been allowed to fall and be rebuilt, even if that meant starting from the ground up.  Sucks to be us.

Foolish people who bought too much house for their means must be allowed to lose them.  Bad companies have to be allowed to fail.  Bad politicians with worse ideas also should to be allowed to fail; I'm doing my part not to get in their way.

I don't think anyone can name three things government does as efficiently and/or cheaply as private industry.  Now government will part owners in AIG, banks, and other failing concerns.  Now government wants to control  health care?  And all of this - plus much more - was put in an 1100-page document nobody who voted on it could even read?

Even though this is all mostly a done deal, I still cannot go along with the can't-we-all-get-along; wait-and-see crowd.  Of course we’ll all just have to ‘sweat it out’ now, what choice?  This is so reminiscent of the FDR New Deal 70 years ago that I cannot believe we have learned nothing from history.  What am I saying?  Of course I can believe it.  We’re still idiots! 

Tell me if any of this sounds familiar:

‘We seldom know six weeks in advance, what we are going to do.’  ‘It is common sense, to take a method and try it: if it fails, admit it frankly and try another.  But above all, try something.’  FDR 

Some of the things he tried:

National Recovery Act (fixed prices and wages).  Forced smaller companies out of business, since lower wages and prices where the only way they could compete with big companies. 

A law in Washington, DC, mandating a minimum monthly wage for women (only), resulting in women losing their jobs to men who were willing to work for much less than that guaranteed wage. 

Agricultural Adjustment Act (subsidized farms by taking acreage out of production and fixed prices).  Designed to curb overproduction and support prices.  In reality production rose because farmers used their cash subsidies to buy fertilizer, and they had taken their worst acreage out of production anyway.  They switched to the crops whose prices were guaranteed, hence, even more overproduction. 

Works Progress Administration (to provide employment and improve infrastructure).  Turned into a giant political patronage system to reward supporters with ‘shovel-leaning’ jobs and to punish detractors.  To get most such jobs, you had to declare your political party, ‘vote right’ and ‘tithe’ to the D party.

Emergency Relief Act (made available to governors to assist the needy in their states).  Since it was supported by huge tax increases, it all but shut off voluntary charitable contributions that traditionally went to the needy.

Excise taxes arbitrarily levied on a few luxury items of the rich such as yachts, furs and jewelry, but also on cars, gasoline, radios, cosmetics, cameras, bank checks, long-distance phone calls and movie tickets used by lower-income groups.

Tariffs on imported goods, which caused other countries to retaliate by taxing or not buying our goods and damaged our export business.

Top income tax bracket for the too-rich (only) 79%  and the IRS was used as a weapon to harass and punish the wealthy, as well as critics of New Deal policies.  Roosevelt was incensed that the wealthy (though he was born to wealth)  used tax loopholes such as charitable deductions and business losses to legally avoid taxes, so he instructed the IRS and Congress to close them.  Meanwhile, FDR himself used such loopholes to deduct the value of materials he donated for his own future presidential library.  He took business losses and farm losses on his personal tax returns. 

Roosevelt was one of those silver-spoon guys, subsidized by someone else’s money (his mother’s) his entire life.  He failed repeatedly in businesses financed by family money.  He had a solid record of picking losers; he thought the airplane was a fad.  He had a lackluster academic career.  Never held a ‘real’ job. His only talents were his personality and charisma.  

Yes, FDR inherited the beginnings of the Great Depression from Herbert Hoover in 1933,  but  Roosevelt’s repeated ‘try something’ efforts to fix it kept it going until World War II. 

Any of this starting to sound familiar?  We’ve been at this exact pivotal point before and we are blowing it again.  Elected another snake oil salesman.  Way to go.

to you closer to the top of this board this date.  I personally am blaming him for using this situation as a power grab to insert himself into control over every aspect of our lives.  Not like we don't have historical precident for all this, and how very badly it went.   

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.  Benjamin Franklin

How long do you consider too long on wait times?  I have alot of friends in Canada that complain all the time about how long it takes them to get in for diagnostic testing.  An MRI of the knee = 6 months.  An abnormal mammogram, ultrasound took = 3 months.  And the stories go on and on.  I worked in QA for about 8-years on one of the largest HMO's here in the US.  One of our projects was a lesion tracking program for breast cancer.  Our acceptable time frame which we entitled "sleepless nights" was 48 hours from time of an abnormal mammogram until the pt. had an ultrasound.  I have worked in several imaging centers where an abnormality was found and additional tests were worked in that day.  From everything I have heard from many of my friends in Canada, is that just doesn't happen there.  A woman I know broke her leg skiing, and she spent 4 days on morphine before they could get it set, it was over a weekend and no ortho doc was available. 

This is what makes me say NO to the type of healthcare system, it reminds me of our county systems here where you go and wait and wait for treatment.

If so, are you sure you comprehend them?  You said, "I, personally, don't think it's the government's job to provide you a job you will love be it a manufacturing job or a higher level professional one."  No one said anything about the government providing you with a job.  She was talking about keeping a job you already have.  A job that you may well love and want to do until the day you retire.

We worry about immigrants coming into our country and taking our jobs, and everyone in the government seems at least slightly concerned about this, yet the government has no problem off-shoring countless American jobs to other countries.  Gee, what's wrong with that picture?  It seems that our middle class is slipping into lower class, and the rich keep getting richer.  Each man for himself seems to be the American way as of late, and some of us, many of us liberals, want to change that mentality.  We need to look out for our working class.

This is posted in response to pub spin that would assert SP is better qualified to lead the country because of O's lack of experience.  Of special note are the numerous foreign relations committee diplomatic initiatives listed below.  Of course, I would be interested in any comparable experience SP may have that the pubs can produce.  I have saved this post and will be using it in reply to any similar assertions made by pubs in the future whenever I encounter them.  Hope format is not too seedy. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama

In Illinois senate O Worked to get BIPARTISAN support on legislation on:

1.       Ethics reform.

2.       Health care reform.

3.       Sponsored bills for earned income tax credits for low-income workers.

4.       Provisions for $100 million in tax cuts to families.

5.       Provisions for early childhood education. 

6.       Welfare reform. 

7.       Childcare subsidies. 

8.       Funding for churches and community groups. 

9.       Chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee. 

10.    Instituted requirement for transparent videotaped police interrogations of suspects in capitol cases after a number of death row inmates were found innocent. 

11.    Measures against racial profiling.

12.    Campaign finance reform. 

13.    Restrictions on lobbyists activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama

In US Senate:

1.       Senate Committee (SC) on Foreign Relations.

2.       SC on Health.

3.       SC on Health.

4.       SC on Labor and Pensions.

5.       SC on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

6.       SC on Veterans' Affairs.

7.       Member of Congressional Black Caucus.

8.       Chairman of the Subcommitte on European Affairs.

9.       Border security and Immigration reform.  Cosponsor "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act introduced by JM. 

10.    Added 3 amendments to the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act.

11.    Supported Secure Fence Act for security improvements along US-Mexico border.

12.    Cosponsored Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act of 2006.  

13.    Introduced expansions to Cooperative Threat Reduction Program to secure and dismantle weapons of mass destruction and their associated infrastructure in former Soviet Union states.

14.    Sponsor of Democratic Republic of Congo Relief, Security and Democracy Promotion Act, signed by Bush, to restore basic services like clinics and schools, train a professional, integrated and accountable police force and military, and otherwise support the Congolese in protecting their human rights and rebuilding their nation.

15.    As member of Foreign Relations Committee, he made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa.  His 2005 trip to Russia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan focus on strategy planning for the control of world's supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons and WMDs and defense against potential terrorist attacks. 

16.    January 2006, met with US military in Kuwait and Iraq.  Visited Jordan, Israel and Palestinian territories.   Asserted preconditions that US will never recognize legitimacy of Hamas leadership until they renounce elimination of Israel. 

17.    August 2006, official trip to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad where he made televised appearance addressing ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya.

18.    Worked on Honest Leadership and Open Government Act, signed into law, to eliminate gifts of travel on corporate jets by lobbyists to members of Congress and require disclosure of bundled campaign contributions. 

19.    Cosponsored bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections to include fraudulent flyers and automated phone calls.

20.    Cosponsored climate change bill to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by two-thirds by 2050.  

21.    Promoted liquefied coal production of gas and diesel.

22.    Introduced Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007 to cap troop levels as prelude to phased troop withdrawal and removal of all combat brigades.

23.    Cosponsored amendment to Defense Authorization Act safeguarding personality disorder military discharges.

24.    Sponsored Iran Sanctions Enabling Act in support of divestment of state pensions funds from Iran's oil and gas industry. 

25.    Introduced legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism., provisions of which were added as amendments to the State-Foreign Operations appropriations bill.  

26.    Sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance program providing one-year job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries, which passed both houses of Congress with bipartisan support but was ultimately vetoed by fearless George. 

When a senator sponsor a bill, he originates the concept, surveys the landscape for support or lack thereof, identifies targets for persuasion, and works for bipartisan consensus.  This would involve extensive research on the content of the bill, assessment of benefits versus cost, knowledge of past voting records of constituents and fashioning persuasive arguments using pros and cons, according to who his individual target is and where he or she is coming from.  He determines constitutionality, legality and any possible conflict of interests.  He authors the bill.  He introduces the bill, debates the bill in the chambers, takes and answers criticism, compromises, rewrites and so forth until passage is achieved.  He then turns around and goes through much the same process to promote the bill in the house.  Then he holds his breath and hopes the president from his opposition party does not wipe out all his hard work with the stroke of a veto pen.  When he cosponsors a bill, he does much the same thing with a partner or partners. 

The accomplishments I listed under the state experience section actually were Obama's initiatives.  The US senate list does not just reflect legislation.  It also demonstrates varied committee membership, which reflects a completely different type of experience, much along the lines of study groups and research focused on strategy building of national and internation consequence.   

Two final observations.  Every single item listed under O's experience indicates the issues he takes most seriously and aligns consistently with the platform he now proposes on a national level in the presidential campaign.  Thus, this addresses the trust issue so often raised by his detractors.  O obviously has been a quick study, or he would not have been able to successfully seize the nomination of his party. 

I do not understand how SP's so-called executive experiences trumps this record.  In fact, my question would be where then DID she get her consensus-building experience from if she was so totally in charge of people she expected to simply fall in line.  Lastly, I am still wondering exactly how SP's record is comparable in this regard...or in words of one syllable...how does she stack up?

Posted by "There is no truth in the assertion...." one down.

"I do not agree with the absolute pronouncement that you are a full-blown psychopath. However, I do see you consistently have tendencies to take a certain measure of pleasure in following aggressive impulses when it comes to validating your obvious adversion to the President-Elect, illustrated by the current post in question. You have been doing this for quite some time, so it would be safe to assume that could be an integral part of who you are. You do seem to gain a great deal of satisfaction out of promoting some of the more far-fetched right-wingnut fantasies out there about O, and you seem to have no particular conscience about doing it. No sarcasm intended. This is the way you come across to some of us."