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It proves the extent of the torture that was used...(sm)

Posted By: Just the big bad on 2009-06-12
In Reply to: Like the Nuernberg Trial after WWII or the Internat'al criminalThe Hague Court..sm - ()

as well as shows the public exactly what the last admin did.  It puts in front of the public (in particular republicans who would be against prosecuting the Bush admin) the facts.  I honestly think the main point of showing pics is to gain public support for the prosecution of the last admin.  I think dems are kind of fighting the battle before it gets there to make prosecution easier......but that's just my opinion.


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Bush signs torture ban but reserves right to torture






Boston.com

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Bush could bypass new torture ban


Waiver right is reserved



WASHINGTON -- When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.


After approving the bill last Friday, Bush issued a ''signing statement -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.


''The executive branch shall construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief, Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks.


Some legal specialists said yesterday that the president's signing statement, which was posted on the White House website but had gone unnoticed over the New Year's weekend, raises serious questions about whether he intends to follow the law.


A senior administration official, who spoke to a Globe reporter about the statement on condition of anonymity because he is not an official spokesman, said the president intended to reserve the right to use harsher methods in special situations involving national security.


''We are not going to ignore this law, the official said, noting that Bush, when signing laws, routinely issues signing statements saying he will construe them consistent with his own constitutional authority. ''We consider it a valid statute. We consider ourselves bound by the prohibition on cruel, unusual, and degrading treatment.


But, the official said, a situation could arise in which Bush may have to waive the law's restrictions to carry out his responsibilities to protect national security. He cited as an example a ''ticking time bomb scenario, in which a detainee is believed to have information that could prevent a planned terrorist attack.


''Of course the president has the obligation to follow this law, [but] he also has the obligation to defend and protect the country as the commander in chief, and he will have to square those two responsibilities in each case, the official added. ''We are not expecting that those two responsibilities will come into conflict, but it's possible that they will.


David Golove, a New York University law professor who specializes in executive power issues, said that the signing statement means that Bush believes he can still authorize harsh interrogation tactics when he sees fit.


''The signing statement is saying 'I will only comply with this law when I want to, and if something arises in the war on terrorism where I think it's important to torture or engage in cruel, inhuman, and degrading conduct, I have the authority to do so and nothing in this law is going to stop me,' he said. ''They don't want to come out and say it directly because it doesn't sound very nice, but it's unmistakable to anyone who has been following what's going on.


Golove and other legal specialists compared the signing statement to Bush's decision, revealed last month, to bypass a 1978 law forbidding domestic wiretapping without a warrant. Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans' international phone calls and e-mails without a court order starting after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.


The president and his aides argued that the Constitution gives the commander in chief the authority to bypass the 1978 law when necessary to protect national security. They also argued that Congress implicitly endorsed that power when it authorized the use of force against the perpetrators of the attacks.


Legal academics and human rights organizations said Bush's signing statement and his stance on the wiretapping law are part of a larger agenda that claims exclusive control of war-related matters for the executive branch and holds that any involvement by Congress or the courts should be minimal.


Vice President Dick Cheney recently told reporters, ''I believe in a strong, robust executive authority, and I think that the world we live in demands it. . . . I would argue that the actions that we've taken are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president.


Since the 2001 attacks, the administration has also asserted the power to bypass domestic and international laws in deciding how to detain prisoners captured in the Afghanistan war. It also has claimed the power to hold any US citizen Bush designates an ''enemy combatant without charges or access to an attorney.


And in 2002, the administration drafted a secret legal memo holding that Bush could authorize interrogators to violate antitorture laws when necessary to protect national security. After the memo was leaked to the press, the administration eliminated the language from a subsequent version, but it never repudiated the idea that Bush could authorize officials to ignore a law.


The issue heated up again in January 2005. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales disclosed during his confirmation hearing that the administration believed that antitorture laws and treaties did not restrict interrogators at overseas prisons because the Constitution does not apply abroad.


In response, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, filed an amendment to a Defense Department bill explicitly saying that that the cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of detainees in US custody is illegal regardless of where they are held.


McCain's office did not return calls seeking comment yesterday.


The White House tried hard to kill the McCain amendment. Cheney lobbied Congress to exempt the CIA from any interrogation limits, and Bush threatened to veto the bill, arguing that the executive branch has exclusive authority over war policy.


But after veto-proof majorities in both houses of Congress approved it, Bush called a press conference with McCain, praised the measure, and said he would accept it.


Legal specialists said the president's signing statement called into question his comments at the press conference.


''The whole point of the McCain Amendment was to close every loophole, said Marty Lederman, a Georgetown University law professor who served in the Justice Department from 1997 to 2002. ''The president has re-opened the loophole by asserting the constitutional authority to act in violation of the statute where it would assist in the war on terrorism.


Elisa Massimino, Washington director for Human Rights Watch, called Bush's signing statement an ''in-your-face affront to both McCain and to Congress.


''The basic civics lesson that there are three co-equal branches of government that provide checks and balances on each other is being fundamentally rejected by this executive branch, she said.


''Congress is trying to flex its muscle to provide those checks [on detainee abuse], and it's being told through the signing statement that it's impotent. It's quite a radical view. src=http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/dingbat_story_end_icon.gif



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© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
 












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I think to a certain extent you are right, but...(sm)

one of the main problems we have in the region is reputation.  As far as most Arabs are concerned the west is the west, with little differentiation between the US and Europe.  If you look at it from their point of view, the west (Britian) took their land to give it to the Jews, and the US (also west) has been backing this decision ever since.  As we all know, this has been the main contention since WWI that they have had with us.  So, in that respect I believe it is very important to look at the history of the situation. 


There are also problems with recent history.  Bush said he wanted a 2-state solution.  Publicly he denounced the advancement of Israeli settlements into Gaza; however, the settlements not only did not slow down, but actually increased the whole time he was saying this.  What was done about it?  Nothing -- that is unless you count Bush raising the amount of money we give Irael each year.  Israel has been using this support we provide to strong arm the rest of the region for years, and reallly needs to be reigned in if we are to have any credibility in the region whatsoever.


I agree to an extent. I think she would
make a much better president than Obama or McCain. I don't think Obama can win (he's inexperienced & the media will destroy him if he gets the nomination), and our economy can't withstand McCain, who is 100% pro-free-trade & wants to expand it, more tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations while screwing over working people, etc. They're already predicting $7/gal gas if McCain gets it. I originally was hoping for Edwards, then hoping for Clinton because I think that's our only chance to beat McCain.
This is true to a certain extent (sm)
There are a lot of great companies out there that do put money back into their company and its employees. Unfortunately, there are too many that the CEOs and their boards pocket the money and couldn't give a rat's patootie about their employees and they're the ones ruining it for everyone else. Also unfortunately, they're the ones we just bailed out with our tax dollars. Sad commentary on the way our country is moving. I like the map of the liberal brain at the end, though - that's funny!
I agree to a certain extent
I do agree that not everyone should be lumped into one group. It's being done on both sides (including myself sometimes). Especially when you are called names (pubs) when your neither a republican or democrat (I'm what I call mutt because I like a little of what every party has for ideas), but when your called a "pub" it's easy to shoot back with a reply and say (dems). Not everyone is in the same group. I do believe that there are people who voted for Obama based on what they believe he can do to help the country. But at the same time there are people who have absolutely no idea who he is, what his past record is, who is friends are, who elevated him to where he is, how he was able to beat out all the candidates that have experience and knowledge about the issues, but he was pushed ahead by the big money people (Wall Street, Bredzinski, etc) and the other candidates were squashed and had no chance without the funds that these "big money" people poured into Obama to ensure he would become president. Anyway...those people who jumped on the band wagon and would not listen to anything except he'll be the first black president, or Bon Jovi or Brad Pitt or other stars are supporting him. Those are what I refer to as the Kool-Aid drinkers. The one's who come on this site and don't talk about issues, about what's happening in the economy, what Obama's plan is. No they come on and say "he's my hero, he's the Messiah, he's makes my heart happy and makes me want to dance, he's just like us because he eats chili dogs and cheese fries just like we do". I've heard every crack-pot "reasoning" for why they "love" Obama, but never for any substance like "I like his health care policy, or he has this idea or that idea of how he is going to create more jobs, he's in the process of drawing up papers to tax companies that take jobs overseas, etc, etc. Nothing like that, just he makes me so happy in my heart I'm dancing around in joy and ecstasy". Those are the Kool-Aid drinkers I refer to. The Obots, Obamaniacs, etc.

Yes, let's give the man a chance. Let's avoid name calling and that is on both sides. When someone posts "he's just like us cos he eats chile dog and cheese fries just like we do", yes they are going to get called a Kool-Aid drinker cos that's what they are. Bringing an opinion like that to this board deserves a response like that. I remember when people who supported McCain were explaining why they supported him, they were met with such hate-filled messages it was awful and I had to take this site out of my favorites.

I say lets give the guy a chance. To tell the truth I don't think he's off to a very good start with already adding to our deficit with the huge cost of the inaugeration (and no, all that money is not being donated by rich people - some maybe, but the rest will just be added and the citizens of America will end up paying for it). Also the people he has picked for his cabinet members. Not good at all.

Yes, he is a smart man. Nobody makes it through law school if they are not smart, but you have to remember, he is a lawyer. He knows how to bend the rules, changes the laws, and maneuver out of things.

I'm not calling Obama any names, but it would be nice if people on the board started bringing real issues to the board instead of lately posted "I love you Obama, you make my heart soar, the mere mention of your name brings me joy, blah, blah, blah". Can we just stick to issues.

How about what is happening inside. People should read what's been going on with Pelosi. DH was telling me that Pelosi is upset because Obama had promised through his campaign that the wealthier people are going to pay more in taxes and now he's changed that and said he's not going to make them pay any more. So guess there's trouble brewing in the democrat party alone. Truthfully I have not read the article, but DH was telling me this yesterday, so I'll have to try and find the article (good luck to me, cos he reads about 80 or so news sites a day - everything from Drudge, MSNBC, Fox, CNN, local and national newspapers, etc) - can you tell he doesn't work :-o.

But these are the issues I want to hear.

Truthfully I am very happy for the people who voted for him. I'm glad you are all happy and giddy. I'm glad you are about to start a week-long celebration. That's all and good and I'm happy for you. But for the people who are following what is happening, who have concerns about the direction our country is taking, about the issues that Obama does not believe in the constitution and is going to try to change it while he is in office (what's next, is he going to try and change the Bible too?). For the people who are worried because there is someone who is trying to change the constitution so that there is no term limits and is fighting for Obama to be the President until his death. These are very worrisome and I am very worried for our country.

So, while I wish Mr. Obama the best, hope he will do good for the country, I am also worried. I won't (and have never called) Mr. Obama any names, but if people continue with the sillyness I will most likely be tempted to call them Kool-Aid drinkers. - Just the "cat" in me.
To a certain extent I agree....however..(sm)

LGBT issues is only a part of the whole course.  It starts in K with why you shouldn't tease and then continues and doesn't hit LGBT issues until the 5th grade.  This is obviously a problem in this state or they wouldn't be addressing it. 


I agree that kids tease, but given today's lack of guidance in the home for kids, the schools are having to take on this responsibility just to keep the kids safe while in their custody.


In a post below you said that we didn't have to have that kind of teaching in school.  You're absolutely right.  We knew what not to do because our parents taught us that.  My grandmother raised me for the most part.  She could "out christian" the best of you.  She didn't agree with homosexuality, interracial marriage, etc, etc, etc....She did teach us that it was wrong as she saw fit.  She also taught us not to make fun of others no matter what.  But by the same token she didn't sit there in front of us and call Rock Hudson a fag.  That's the difference.


To a certain extent I agree....however..(sm)

LGBT issues is only a part of the whole course.  It starts in K with why you shouldn't tease and then continues and doesn't hit LGBT issues until the 5th grade.  This is obviously a problem in this state or they wouldn't be addressing it. 


I agree that kids tease, but given today's lack of guidance in the home for kids, the schools are having to take on this responsibility just to keep the kids safe while in their custody.


In a post below you said that we didn't have to have that kind of teaching in school.  You're absolutely right.  We knew what not to do because our parents taught us that.  My grandmother raised me for the most part.  She could "out christian" the best of you.  She didn't agree with homosexuality, interracial marriage, etc, etc, etc....She did teach us that it was wrong as she saw fit.  She also taught us not to make fun of others no matter what.  But by the same token she didn't sit there in front of us and call Rock Hudson a fag.  That's the difference.


I can understand and empathize to an extent,
while I was able to have one child, I was not able have anymore than that due to a multitude of problems leading to miscarrying, hysterectomy and a diagnosis of SLE and a stroke at the age of 45. As for unwanted cats and dogs, I agree with you there too, but I have taken action in this situation, for over 20 years on my own with no funding at great expense to myself, I have taken in hundreds of cats and found homes, with the exception of handicapped ones, nobody wanted them so I just kept them and dealth with their handicap. The reward in this is that I have managed to save some lives, albeit it is only a cup of water out of the ocean. And I would not agree with creating embryos for the purpose of research, but I am not against using ones that will be otherwise thrown away. If it should turn out that they can save lives, I think that is a good thing. I think a line would have to be drawn, and could be drawn, but then again, somebody mentioned in a post (forget who) that God gave us domain over the animals and the human race in general has not done a very good job there though, so you could be right.
I personally think it helps to an extent...
I listened to Michelle Obama's speech and I thought she was very articulate...and they are a beautiful family. I did listen to Hillary, and in my opinion, she made it all about her. She said the right things, but I don't think her heart was in it. I think there is a LOT of bitterness there still. Bill already put his foot in his mouth, no telling what he will say during his speech. What I found very strange was the camera focused on him while Hillary was speaking, and he had tears in his eyes, and he mouthed "I love you I love you I love you." It was easy to see what he was saying. Have no idea if that was for the cameras or was a really unguarded moment. Who knows? It just seemed really out of character for him. I did notice that she said she came before the crowd a proud mother, a proud Democrat and a proud United States Senator from New York...but nuttin' about being a proud wife...lol. Who can blame her??

As to Barack and Michelle being down to earth, I know that is the message she wanted to send. But when speaking to a group of middle class-type women, she kinda messed up when she told a story about Barack getting on to her for a $10,000 bill for the kids(yes, ten thousand) and she said to him, "Do you know how much camp costs?" That demonstrates that she was out of touch with the people she was talking to. $10,000 is probably a third of what they make a YEAR if they were lucky. She lives a very different life than the middle class. She may remember it from childhood, but she has left that behind her. Not that that is a bad thing...it just demonstrates that they are rich folks just like McCain. Most politicians are. It goes with the territory. All that being said, having money does not make any of them bad people.

I missed the speech of the man from Virginia, so can't comment on that one. Bill's will be interesting. You never know what is going to come out of his mouth.

I think we will find out more about the candidates after the convention, when we have official nominees, get to the debates, and if we can sort through the mud being slung from both sides, that is where most of our information will come from.

I agree to a certain extent - see message
I too could care less who has affairs nowadays. Doesn't make me think any less or more of them. However - my little however :-) - He was not the President of the US - Clinton was. Clinton should have been removed from office (although then Gore would have been in charge, so I take that back now) :-) Anyway...it was the fact that Clinton had an affair that got him in trouble, it was the lies, manipulation, lies, and all the other illegal stuff he did that went along with it.

I don't particularly think they are being any less or more hard/lenient on this guy than they had with others who did the same thing. Remember John Edwards? The democrat who WAS running for VP? My point is more that you can't say "this guy was a republican that might have possibly run for VP the next election, and that's why its so bad", when you don't bring up Edwards who DID run for VP.

I feel this way...if it's a republican who is caught having an affair the liberals are sure dragging them through the mud, and if it's a democrat who is caught having an affair the conservatives drag him through the mud. I don't feel either side gets a free pass when it comes to being raked through the coals. I'm sick to death of hearing about this republican who had an affair about as sick as I was hearing about that NY guy, and Edwards, and that guy who got caught in the bathroom at some airport, etc, etc., but your making it sound like only the democrats getting picked on and that's just not true.

P.S. - We really don't need Biden to have an affair to have a field day with him, every time he opens his mouth and speaks he does a doozy on himself. HA HA HA
To a great extent, it is Frank's fault, previous poster correct.
Barney Frank and the rest of the democrats in charge of Congress now, will be laughing at you, too....at all of us.
And from Mr. Pro-torture
Powell Aide: Torture 'Guidance' from VP
CNN News

Monday 21 November 2005

Former staff chief says Cheney's 'flexibility' helped lead to abuse.
Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, told CNN that the practice of torture may be continuing in U.S.-run facilities.

There's no question in my mind that we did. There's no question in my mind that we may be still doing it, Wilkerson said on CNN's Late Edition.

There's no question in my mind where the philosophical guidance and the flexibility in order to do so originated - in the vice president of the United States' office, he said. His implementer in this case was [Defense Secretary] Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department.

At another point in the interview, Wilkerson said the vice president had to cover this in order for it to happen and in order for Secretary Rumsfeld to feel as though he had freedom of action.

Traveling in Latin America earlier this month, President Bush defended U.S. treatment of prisoners, saying flatly, We do not torture. (Full story)

Cheney has lobbied against a measure in Congress that would outlaw cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoners, calling for an exception for the CIA in cases that involve a detainee who may have knowledge of an imminent attack.

The amendment was included in a $491 billion Pentagon spending bill that declared 2006 to be a period of significant transition for Iraq. (Full story)

Proposed by Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, the amendment was approved in the Senate last month by a 90-9 vote. It was not included in the House version of the bill.

The White House has said that Bush would likely veto the bill if McCain's language is included, calling the amendment unnecessary and duplicative.

Rumsfeld told ABC's This Week on Sunday that the White House was in negotiations with the Senate over the amendment.

There's a discussion and debate taking place as to what the implications might be and what is supportable and what is not, he told the program. But the fact of the matter is the president from the outset has said that he required that there be humane treatment.

Cheney has come under mounting criticism for his position. Last week, Stansfield Turner, a military veteran who served as director of the CIA during the Carter administration, labeled him the vice president for torture. (Full story)

In a statement responding to Turner's remark, Cheney said his views are reflected in the administration's policy. Our country is at war and our government has an obligation to protect the American people from a brutal enemy that has declared war upon us.

We are aggressively finding terrorists and bringing them to justice and anything we do within this effort is within the law, the statement said, adding that the United States does not torture.

Rumsfeld Denies 'Cabal' Charge

Bush administration officials, including Rumsfeld and military officials, have denied that instances of torture were ever officially condoned. Some personnel accused of torture have been convicted and sentenced for prisoner abuse.

All the instructions I issued required humane treatment, Rumsfeld told ABC. Anything that was done that was not humane has been prosecuted.

But Wilkerson argued last month in a speech that Cheney and Rumsfeld formed a cabal that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

Wilkerson told CNN Sunday he does not know if the president was witting in this or not.

I voted for him twice, he said. I prefer to think that he was not.

Earlier, on the same CNN program, Rumsfeld dismissed as ridiculous the claim that he was involved in a cabal.

Rumsfeld and Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said they had no recollection of Wilkerson having attended meetings with Rumsfeld or Cheney.

In terms of having first-hand information, I just can't imagine that he does, said Rumsfeld. The allegation is ridiculous.

I was in every meeting with the joint chiefs. I was in every meeting with the combatant commanders. I went to the White House multiple times to meet with the National Security Council and with the president of the United States. I have never seen that colonel, added Pace.

They made my point for me, responded Wilkerson. The decisions were not made in the principals' process, in the deputies' process, in the policy coordinating committee process. They were not made in the statutory process.

Wilkerson said his insights came from Powell walking through my door in April or March of 2004 and telling me to get everything I could get my hands on with regard to the detainee abuse issue - ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] reporting, memoranda, open-source information and so forth - so that I could build some kind of story, some kind of audit trail so we could understand the chronology and we can understand how it developed.

While he acknowledged having no proof that the United States is torturing detainees, Wilkerson said, I can only assume that, when the vice president of the United States lobbies the Congress on behalf of cruel and unusual punishment and the need to be able to do that in order to get information out of potential terrorists... that it's still going on.

He said U.S. officials should realize they are involved in a war of ideas that cannot be advanced with torture.

In a war of ideas, you cannot damage your own ideas, your own position by seeming to do things that are in contradiction of your values, he said.

Rumsfeld told ABC that the military has overwhelmingly treated people humanely.

The history of the United States military is clear. Torture doesn't work. The military knows that. We want our people treated humanely, he said.

So torture is okay?
Sorry, don't watch TV. Homeland security - horse and pony show.........Our current govt is hiring people left and right, recruiting nonstop to hire people to protect our country. We will get attacked again. Can't blame anyone but the perps for that. It is what Obama will do about it that I am concerned with. Bush promised to get bin laden and invaded Iraq instead. Look at Katrina. Bush could not fix the knot in his own undershorts, let alone run a country. 
Torture is torture
Torture is wrong, no matter where it took place. Do you think God is going to look kindly on anyone torturing another human being...A.K.A. "Playing God"??
Now Mr. Pro-torture is scheduled
Cheney to raise funds for DeLay

The White House is not distancing itself from embattled former U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), who is facing charges of breaking state campaign finance law.

Vice President Cheney is scheduled to appear at a December 5, Houston fundraiser on DeLay's behalf. Donors are being asked to contribute at least $500, according to an e-mail sent by the Fort Bend (Texas) Republican Party. Shannon Flaherty, DeLay's spokeswoman, confirmed details of the fundraiser.

For five years, Congressman DeLay has served as a key ally to pass the White House's agenda through Congress, and Ronnie Earle's political sideshow isn't going to get in the way of the real business at hand, said Flaherty. This event shows the Democrat strategy of avenging their ballot box losses with smear tactics and lawsuits is not going to work -- Republicans stick by their friends and don't back down from a fight.

DeLay was forced to step down from his leadership position in late September after Earle, the Travis County (Texas) district attorney, charged him with illegally directing corporate donations to Texas candidates. DeLay has asked that his trial be moved from Travis to Fort Bend County.

As of September 30, 2005, DeLay had $1.164 million in his warchest. Former Rep. Nick Lampson (D-Texas) is challenging DeLay for his seat.
Gitmo Torture
This will undoubtably shake some things up. If the detainees' trials cannot proceed because the "enhanced interrogation techniques" authorized by the Bush administration have tainted the process so much that prosecutors cannot proceed in some of their cases, what happens now?


"We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

....

Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
Torture and Oppression?
What kind of marshmallow life have you been living, my dear? Do you have any idea what some people go through in other parts of the world?

How can we help but laugh at you if you insist on making a fool of yourself?
Religulous torture....(sm)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.





The Washington Region Religious Campaign Against Torture rallied on Capitol Hill in March 2008.


More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.


White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.


The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. " See results of the survey »


The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.


The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html#cnnSTCText


Obviously, "torture is torture".
The question is what constitutes torture. In my view, none of the techniques used, under the conditions in which they were used, constitute torture, including waterboarding.

I'd get into the notion of waterboarding as torture if we didn't do it to our own troops by way of training. That, to me, puts the tin hat on any idea that waterboarding constitutes torture.

This idea that interrogation should constitute nothing more severe than a game of "Simon Says" or "Mother May I?" suggests to me that we should bring back the draft and extend it to both sexes. There are too many people in this country who have never had to confront anything in this world more evil than their best friend running off with their boyfriend. They seem to think the world is made of gingerbread, and populated by Sunday School teachers. A stint in the military would open their eyes to reality.
If waterboarding isn't torture...(sm)
then why did we execute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding American POWs after WWII?  Maybe it's just considered torture when done to Americans?  You can't have it both ways. 
Definitely NOT by torture, If I were Obama I would probably know how!...nm
nm
O is not going to engage in torture. He does not
believe in torture.
Bush's and Cheney's way DID NOT WORK.

How can you say that I am naive, maybe you are. Who knows?

Time will tell.

I can only pray, hope and wish that O will be successful in protecting and promoting the United States of America.
No to torture ! This brings only hate and more war! ..nm
nm
NO to torture. YES to tough interrogations!
nm
No, you are wrong. Obama is against torture,
he does not want to go the same path like Bush and Cheney, the wrong path.

He wants to compromise and negotiate. He started already with Iran and Netanyahu. He snubbed Natanyahu and told him that Natanyahu has to accept and agree to a 2-state solution or there will most probably be war.

O is very, very smart and I pray to God that he will stay strong and prevail when even certain Americans wish him failure.
yes, I agree, the torture was extreme, we just
got a 'glimpse' of it. But this is not the right time to expose it when the US troops are still in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Torture memos update
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31378360
This actually proves that...
global warming is a naturally occurring event. Not manmade. No greenhouse effect by man.

You helped my point, in a roundabout way. Thanks!

By the way, your first link didn't bring up anything but someone's nightly news blog on MSNBC. Was there something important on there you wanted us to see?
This proves it

These posters are paid political trolls.  I knew they would think up something else.  This post is absolutely laughable, asking MTs to come up with $50,000 to $60,000 for such a ridiculous cause so they can become  heroes"  ....baaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha 


I think most MTs these days are more concerned with having enough work to pay the light bill and buy groceries.


Hardly? Proves it every day, many more to come.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$444
They call "sleep deprivation" torture. Then I have
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torture,-if waterboarding can save thousands of
nm
Hmmm, didn't a lot of the torture start
after 9-11 which I recall being a horrible terrorist attack? At that time, maybe torture was the right thing to do to find Obama, sorry, I mean Osama.
We do not purposely kill, cut off heads, torture.
nm
Still not torture. Poilcemen TAZER our own citizens.
Heck, the 'resource officers' at my kid's high school tazed a kid for spitting in the commons area.

Maybe we should just taze the terrorists. I'll bet they'll talk then. When they start sh!tting themselves and going into convulsions, I'll bet they'll cough up whatever info they have.

Plus, it'll save on the Gitmo water bill, and I think we're ALL for that.

It must be hard for you to accept that even the DEMS voted to keep Gitmo going.

Hey, maybe the terrorits could all live at YOUR house. You guys seem to have a lot in common.
I hope that O will not have to torture wrong confessions out
of Muslim prisoners. He has a different strategy, talking, negotiating, compromising, CHANGE and WISDOM.
This thread started with waterboarding, torture or not?
Everybody is FREE to post one's opinion.

I NEVER STARTED being rude, maybe I REACTED rude.

The one who starts is the guilty one, even with insulting language. I dislike it immensely when people run out of ideas to defend their stance, the personal attacks, taken out of the blue, set in, like
'take your meds' or 'take your Xanax', or 'chill out.'

This puts them immediately into the loser position.

Or they become all of a sudden 'Grammar Nazis', because they run out of choices to prove their points, whereas these are mostly just TYPOS.

Or do you follow the Christian rule:

'If somebody slaps you on your right cheek, offer him also your left cheek.'

I NEVER understood this weird suggestion.
Torture memos update/correction...(sm)

First, please note that I never said that pics would be released in the OP, only redacted portions of the memos. (Presumably testimonies of the prisoners)  The previous thread about this turned into a debate about releasing pics, and I erroneously didn't catch and correct that.  My bad.


Update:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#31334053


 


is it right to torture a prisoner to prove that he is innocent?..sm
More prisoners are tortured to death or drippled for life because they do not have anything to confess.
This proves only 2 things.

First, that Scarborough can criticize Bush, as well as compliment him.  He can do both, unlike you.  If he sees something wrong, he has the courage to say it; however, he is still a conservative and he still supports Bush.  As I said before, he just doesn't *blindly* support him, and he has the ability to be objective.


The second thing it proves is the CON method of doing things is to silence and disparage those who have the audacity to exert their (so far) constitutionally protected right to freedom of speech.


Scarborough is a respectable man.  He loves America and he respects the Constitution.  Unlike your *God Bush,* who thinks the Constitution is only a *piece of paper.*  The fact that you so aggressively defend someone so obviously devoid of morals and ethics tells me way more than I want to know about you.  People like you give me the heebie-jeebies, and I'd just rather associate myself with your kind of people, so I won't be responding to you any more. 


You really do belong on the CON board, you know.  Your nastiness and constant harassment of people on this board is getting old, is incredibly distasteful and just might wind up being brought to the moderator's attention if it continues.


This just proves my point.

 We are still talking about the MJF ad and I never even heard anything about Ben Affleck which just proves that his voice does not  reach  quite as many people as Rush does.  If I had heard what he said I would condemn that as well. I really really do not think there is ever an occasion when it is all right to malign the disabled.


 


No, joke is on you and proves you do NOT
The writers of the constitution DID NOT have electoral college. It was not written into law until the 1800s it is called "college of electors" and even then, it did not work because they had to amend AGAIN because political parties emerged, which showed electoral college did not work.

When the constitution is spoke of, it should mean as our founding fathers meant it. I say again, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Just proves one thing. s/m
Republicans are carrying on their family tradition, Democrats do the same thing.  WHEN will Americans wake up and realize that neither party is what it was for your parents and grandparents?  I had a similar discussion this very morning with my son.  He doesn't like McCain but he is voting for him.  I changed the subject. At least I taught him to think for himself. 
Well, it proves that Obama isn't ...

...a terrorist, as he's been ridiculously accused of being.


I'm still worried about Bush finding a reason to declare martial law and creating a dictatorship before Obama takes the oath of office, and I wonder if a terror attack would assist in that endeavor. 


this proves my earlier

post about the popularity of Fox News and the country being a majority of dullards.  Not enough information to understand the debates on Meet The Press or other actual news programs, so watch 2 clowns argue.  When finished, turn on the wrasslin' channel.


 


You got it! Obama proves more and more
nm
Your response proves that you obviously , , ,
didn't REALLY listen to his Cairo speech.  First of all, he was not "heaping scorn" on the US.  He had FIRM words for all parties involved, including us.  After all, the US bears just as much culpability as anyone else and an admission to mistakes in the past is long overdue.  ALL PEOPLE want respect and, sorry to disagree strongly with you, but the last administration showed anything but respect to these people.  Maybe you should go back and really listen to the WHOLE speech, since it is obvious that you only heard the sound bites taken out of context that Fox News chose to play.  Your words sound like they came straight from Hannity's ignorant mouth.
History proves that I am right, you can only
cite the Bible.
You can't spell or pick a winner; it's torture, not tortue
Keep chomping those sour grapes.
Sorry, JTBB, other countries use worse torture than what was stated here.

They starve, cut off fingers, hands, pull nails out, burn private parts, and decapitate prisoners in other countries.  Why do you call other people with their comments "nimrods?"


If you want to torture to stop, why don't you go to those countries and fight against their torture? No...you'd rather call the American people nimrods. What is it with you? You used to have thoughtful posts, but now all you do is spew hate for Americans that do not support your views.


You are becoming anti-American IMHO and its sad that you could let the present government blind you to everything. You're either a socialist, facist, or a communist without announcing it up front. You have absolutely made me furious with your one-sided posts since the election. I try not to read them, but sometimes I do get a good laugh at your outrageous statements.


 


Lets talk about the torture of our soldiers by our enemies
Electrocution, beatings, broken bones, etc, etc, oh and their favorite of all times....beheadings.

The witch hunt should end here. What happened, happened. It's done and your god is in their now. I may have not liked what went on in the last administration (reason why I voted them out), but there is no reason to burn Bush/Cheney at the stake. What the other side does is 100 times worse.