If you go to church, has your pastor done this?

WEST BEND, Wis. (AP) - Thirty-three pastors in 22 states used their sermons to make pointed recommendations about political candidates today.

The effort was orchestrated by the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund.

The conservative legal group plans to send copies of the pastors' sermons to the Internal Revenue Service with hope of setting off a legal fight and abolishing restrictions on church involvement in politics.

Critics call it unnecessary, divisive and unlikely to succeed.

The Reverend Eric Williams of Columbus has organized 55 religious leaders across the nation to file a complaint about the ADF's challenge.

The minister with the liberal United Church of Christ says churches should stand apart from the government.

• If you go to church, has your pastor done this? - sm
  • churches & political endorsements - Les R.
  • I have a priest, and he told us we would burn in - see msg
    • and he gets to make those decisions? nm - anon
  • My pastor gave info - Yes
    • not all pastors - ExMQMT
  • No, NEVER and nm - I've gone to church all my life
  • Have not experienced it firsthand..... - sam
    • It's called separation of church and state - nm - Amanda
      • Excuse me, it is not about separation of church and state... - sam

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There are problems and controversy in every church.  I do not agree with things that go on in my church nor everything that my pastor says or does.  I have found that some churches problems are greater than the ones in your own church, so some times you have to be still. 

Here's one for ya....Me along with plenty of other Americans don't agree with what our current President Bush has done in terms of running our country, starting a war, making history by putting every state in this country in a negative deficit, and I could continue to go on, but the point is even in our disagreement with him, we have not jumped up and ran to another country and we wonder why; running is not the answer.  First off it is not our place to condemn one, but since someone is being condemned for what was said, condemn the Rev. Wright, not Obama.

The founding pastor of a second Colorado church has resigned over gay sex allegations, just weeks after the evangelical community was shaken by the scandal surrounding megachurch leader Ted Haggard.

Haggard, a gay-marriage opponent, admitted to unspecified sexual immorality when he resigned last month as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs. A male prostitute had said he had had sex with Haggard for three years.

On Sunday, Paul Barnes, founding pastor of the 2,100-member Grace Chapel in this Denver suburb, told his evangelical congregation in a videotaped message he had had sexual relations with other men and was stepping down.

Dave Palmer, associate pastor of Grace Chapel, told The Denver Post that Barnes confessed to him after the church received a call last week.

The church board of elders accepted Barnes' resignation on Thursday.

On the videotape, which The Post was allowed to view, Barnes told church members: I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a 5-year-old boy. ... I can't tell you the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep, begging God to take this away.

Barnes, 54, led Grace Chapel for 28 years. He and his wife have two adult children.

Palmer said in a written statement that While we cannot condone what he has done, we continue to support and love Paul.

According to dictionary.com, the meanings of the N-word are “deeply disparaging and are used when the speaker deliberately wishes to cause great offense.”  They go on to say, conversely, “it is sometimes used among African-Americans in a neutral or familiar way.”  Since he whispered the statement behind what he thought was a cold microphone, it is highly unlikely that Rev. Jackson intended to cause great offense and his use of the word probably falls into the latter category of usage. 

For example, the N-word can become much less offensive and even assume neutrality within historical discourse, literature, poetry, cinema theater and the like.  One could further argue that within certain contexts (i.e. rap music, conversations within the black households, neighborhoods and businesses, to name a few) connotations of the word can be construed so as to convey a sense of community…even a brotherhood, of sorts.  Language is fluid, dynamic and vital in its nature, not static or one-dimensional.  Context, message, intent, environment, speaker and audience all impact the ultimate nuance of meaning in all forms of communication. 

I agree with you and take deep offense at the use of the N-word, regardless of who says it.  However, I would like to comment on some of the other points you raised in your post.  A careful read of the actual statement shows that Rev. Jackson did not use this epithet to personally attack Obama.  Rather, he was referring to the black population as a whole.  Granted, his choice of words was extremely poor (at least from a white perspective), but the statement was not meant for public scrutiny.  It was spoken from one black individual to another, much the same was that Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s statements were made from black preacher to black congregation. 

As a white person, I do not believe I can sit in judgment one way or another regarding his choice of words when taken completely out of context, in the same way I am not qualified to criticize the sermons of Rev. Wright.  I would like to think that I am intelligent enough to understand that, having lived in the US as a white person both before and after the civil right eras (1948 to present), I have not experienced life in America the same way black people have.  They are entitled to their own “take” on their own lives.  Who am I to tell them how to “tell it like it is?”

One last point.  I am sure that much flap and bruhah will ensue over this unfortunate news.  However, the very fact that Rev. Sharpton, you, I, the media and countless others will be having this debate over our outrage and dismay is a testament as to just how effective Rev Jackson and other early leaders in the civil rights movement were in defining the key issues, defying status quo of his times, enlisting support for the cause, effectively engaging his opposition in ongoing bipartisan initiatives over nearly 4 decades and producing fruitful, far-reaching and substantial bodies of legislation from which today’s black community continue to reap bountiful benefits and blessings.  They weathered storms of protests, incarceration, series after series of setbacks and reversals, and buckets of bloodshed in their efforts to secure the civil liberties and rights that reach far beyond the black community to encompass other forms of discrimination against women, gays, immigrants and the poor, to name a few…all so casually taken for granted and so easily dismissed in the blink of an eye with one ill-chosen, unfortunate slip of the tongue. 

For those of us whose memories reach further back than the latest round of CNN sound bytes and chat room chatter, we probably would forgive Obama should he decide not to denounce Rev Jackson’s support, nor would we feel driven to force him to abandon his own pastor of 20 years for the sake of our own righteous indignation. 

Of course, we all know the Christian Right will haul out the WMDs to slay the messenger, but for the rest of us, this will be a pretty interesting read.  I have not had a chance to completely view the video, but it will be fascinating to see how the Christian Right can bash this Pentacostal Worldview.  Here's the link.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Is this what is going on in the churchs now?  Fear tactics that we are all doomed to he**?  Our society is morally based.  Go walk around the Middle East for a day and you will appreciate just how moral we are.  The public schools aren't there to raise our children and at least they can go to school.  You don't have to put your child in the public school system, that is also the beauty of choice in our country.  Try having your child dodge bombs instead or be taught to strap bombs to themselves and die in the name of God.  I'll take the science class any day over that.  You can teach your children to have faith and to read books based on opinions and science.  We aren't stupid, we can make our own decisions.  I love the fact that my son can argue all points of view.  He was taught evolution, so what?  He is smart enough to make his own decision, just like you!  All opinions should be presented to grow and learn.  If there was only one point of view, how would we know how to chose? 

OBAMA'S CHURCH

Subject: TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST

During this campaign for the Presidency, It's interesting that so much had been made of Mitt Romney's Mormom religion, while we heard/hear so little of Barack Obama's, outside of the denials of his being Muslim.

However, if you look more closely at Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's church, it sounds more like a racist cult than anything else, with a committment, not to America, but to Africa. Scary, when you consider this man could be the President of this United States.

Please go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned.  Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K!  Whites attend, I have also read, but are not members.  Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing.  This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa!  It is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary. This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to:

www.tucc.org/about.htm

and then I saw/heard him speak yesterday and only see young white people always arround him....where are these black folks who are supporting him?  The whites on TV clamoring around him far outweigh the number of blacks ALL the time that I see, I do not get that....it should be mixed in my mind wherever he speaks/goes to. 

I am not a racist so please do not attack me.....

I don't care what anyone believes or practices - freedom of religion 

It's the freaks who think THEIR religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion who scare me.

Even Jesus was a liberal.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,592419,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Antiwar Sermon Brings IRS Warning

All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena risks losing its tax-exempt status because of a former rector's remarks in 2004.

By Patricia Ward Biederman and Jason Felch
Times Staff Writers

November 7, 2005

The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election.

Rector J. Edwin Bacon of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena told many congregants during morning services Sunday that a guest sermon by the church's former rector, the Rev. George F. Regas, on Oct. 31, 2004, had prompted a letter from the IRS.

In his sermon, Regas, who from the pulpit opposed both the Vietnam War and 1991's Gulf War, imagined Jesus participating in a political debate with then-candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry. Regas said that good people of profound faith could vote for either man, and did not tell parishioners whom to support.

But he criticized the war in Iraq, saying that Jesus would have told Bush, Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.

On June 9, the church received a letter from the IRS stating that a reasonable belief exists that you may not be tax-exempt as a church … The federal tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from intervening in political campaigns and elections.

The letter went on to say that our concerns are based on a Nov. 1, 2004, newspaper article in the Los Angeles Times and a sermon presented at the All Saints Church discussed in the article.

The IRS cited The Times story's description of the sermon as a searing indictment of the Bush administration's policies in Iraq and noted that the sermon described tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.

As Bacon spoke, 1984 Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a co-celebrant of Sunday's Requiem Eucharist, looked on.

We are so careful at our church never to endorse a candidate, Bacon said in a later interview.

One of the strongest sermons I've ever given was against President Clinton's fraying of the social safety net.

Telephone calls to IRS officials in Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles were not returned.

On a day when churches throughout California took stands on both sides of Proposition 73, which would bar abortions for minors unless parents are notified, some at All Saints feared the politically active church had been singled out.

I think obviously we were a bit shocked and dismayed, said Bob Long, senior warden for the church's oversight board. We felt somewhat targeted.

Bacon said the church had retained the services of a Washington law firm with expertise in tax-exempt organizations.

And he told the congregation: It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts.

After the initial inquiry, the church provided the IRS with a copy of all literature given out before the election and copies of its policies, Bacon said.

But the IRS recently informed the church that it was not satisfied by those materials, and would proceed with a formal examination. Soon after that, church officials decided to inform the congregation about the dispute.

In an October letter to the IRS, Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said, It seems ludicrous to suggest that a pastor cannot preach about the value of promoting peace simply because the nation happens to be at war during an election season.

Owens said that an IRS audit team had recently offered the church a settlement during a face-to-face meeting.

They said if there was a confession of wrongdoing, they would not proceed to the exam stage. They would be willing not to revoke tax-exempt status if the church admitted intervening in an election.

The church declined the offer.

Long said Bacon is fond of saying it's a sin not to vote, but has never told anyone how to vote. We don't do that. We preach to people how to vote their values, the biblical principles.

Regas, who was rector of All Saints from 1967 to 1995, said in an interview that he was surprised by the IRS action and then I became suspicious, suspicious that they were going after a progressive church person.

Regas helped the current church leadership collect information for the IRS on his sermon and the church's policies on involvement in political campaigns.

Some congregants were upset that a sermon citing Jesus Christ's championing of peace and the poor was the occasion for an IRS probe.

I'm appalled, said 70-year-old Anne Thompson of Altadena, a professional singer who also makes vestments for the church.

In a government that leans so heavily on religious values, that they would pull a stunt like this, it makes me heartsick.

Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank, questioned whether the 3,500-member church would be under scrutiny if it were not known for its activism and its liberal stands on social issues.

The question is, is it politically motivated? he said. That's the underlying feeling of everyone here. I don't have enough information to make a decision, but there's a suspicion.

Bacon revealed the IRS investigation at both morning services. Until his announcement, the mood of the congregation had been solemn because the services remembered, by name, those associated with the church who had died since last All Saints Day.

Regas' 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush's positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons.

In the sermon, Regas said, President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.'

Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.

If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, Why is so little mentioned about the poor?''

In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I'm not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child.

When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.

Owens, the tax attorney, said he was surprised that the IRS is pursuing the case despite explicit statements by Regas that he was not trying to influence the congregation's vote.

I doubt it's politically motivated, Owens said. I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are.

According to Owens, six years ago the IRS used to send about 20 such letters to churches a year. That number has increased sharply because of the agency's recent delegation of audit authority to agents on the front lines, he said.

He knew of two other churches, both critical of government policies, that had received similar letters, Owens said.

It's unclear how often the IRS raises questions about the tax-exempt status of churches.

While such action is rare, the IRS has at least once revoked the charitable designation of a church.

Shortly before the 1992 presidential election, a church in Binghamton, N.Y., ran advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy, and the tax agency ruled that the congregation could not retain its tax-exempt status because it had intervened in an election.

Bacon said he thought the IRS would eventually drop its case against All Saints.

It is a social action church, but not a politically partisan church, he said.