I think I meant to say you "posted" some valid points

• Important issue - me
  • Even the worst of ideas - Chele
  • Obama lives in a fantasy land of his own making. - mt
  • Some of Obama's friends are enemies of the USA - So, he would negotiate with them -scary.nm
    • Did you ever think that... - Proud of Obama
      • You cannot convert these people - me
        • So is the only way out to go to war with all of them? - s/m
          • you posed some valid points - me
            • I agree you can't have a dialogue with the - true crazies like Hussain, Bin Ladin, etc., sm
            • I think I meant to say you "posted" some valid points - me
      • exactly what alternative universe do you and Obama....sm - good grief
        • You foolishly contradict yourself! - Proud of Obama
          • You foolishly think I posted before the one above yours here...sm - good griefl
        • I would be nice if life was a fairytale. - Terrorists dont become your friend.nm
          • One of you call them enemies...the other one calls them terrorists! - Make up your mind!
            • I posted about enemies...sm - good grief
          • Yeah, lets give our money away and make our - enemies our friend. Thanks Obama -OMG.nm
      • I agree 100% - I'm putting my money on Obama!
        • Then be prepared for Obama to take - Chele
        • you won't have any $ left if this commie gets elected. nm - susan
          • I already have next-to-none. If he's elected, at least - I stand a chance; none with McSame.
            • If you have next to no $ left now - I do not support scum!
            • I would like to hear how Obama will make it better. - Socialism takes freedom away. nm
          • Are you insinuating that Obama is a communist? - What!
            • Insinuating?? We're stating it as a fact!!! - To the bone........nm
            • You really should read a book about his... - sam
            • Obama is a socialist and probably a closet...sm - ms
            • He is a socialist - New Englander
              • that's putting it lightly - susan
                • It is frustrating - New Englander
                  • so true - susan
                    • Thanks for the welcome home. - New Englander
                      • Sean, etc. - susan
                • Most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. - "Help! The sky is falling"! - nm
                  • Susan and others are right. Obama supporters - need to open your eyes! nm
                    • we could challenge them - susan

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and ones that have to be addressed.  However, I don't see anything wrong with setting a goal, which is what Obama has done by saying it should be closed in 1 year.  I think he purposely left himself some leeway by saying a year, and at the same time let people like me who support him that it will get done.

Personally I think they should be tried in a military court, which would avoid a lot of the bureaucracy that is associated with the regular US court system.  They may want to go by the world court rules when trying them?  You're right.  Noone knows exactly how this is going to be done yet, but we all know that something has to be done.

As far as housing them here, I don't see a problem with that.  Right now we house murderers, rapists, and some of the worst criminals immaginable.  I don't think that these prisoners from Gitmo would pose anymore of a threat that some that are already there.  However, I do think that Gitmo prisoners would have a really hard time in a prison here because of other prisoners. 

Obviously, there is a lot to be worked out, especially when it comes to those in Gitmo who are actually guilty, but there has to be something done soon about the ones who aren't.

but what about those pregnant woman who are murdered and they are pregnant and the murderer is charge with double homicide.  Why is the killing of a fetus okay in one circumstance but considered murder in another.  LOL!  It starts to get confusing when you look at every little thing.

I just think abortion is something that does need some form of guidelines. 

You don't tolerate irresponsibility when it comes to pet owners (which I agree with, by the way), yet you seem to welcome it when it comes to your political party.  One has to ask why you continue to sing the praises of and support the most irresponsible administration in US history, yet you express outrage about a cat owner.  Just doesn't make sense.

And as far as you being tolerant, one only needs to take a quick look at the conservative board to see how laughable that really is.  You and your cohorts post the most intolerant posts I've ever seen anywhere on the internet.

I do agree with you about pet owners being responsible.  I am a pet owner and keep my pets under control simply because I love them and want to keep them safe. 

I couldn't find the Russert quote because you misquoted.  I believe both Cheney and Russert changed their positions since this interview.....

As far as the "747" you mention -- I couldn't find it because it was actually a "707" and here is another opinion on its significance:

"a former C.I.A. station chief and a former military intelligence analyst said that the camp near Salman Pak had been built not for terrorism training but for counter-terrorism training. In the mid-eighties, Islamic terrorists were routinely hijacking aircraft. In 1986, an Iraqi airliner was seized by pro-Iranian extremists and crashed, after a hand grenade was triggered, killing at least sixty-five people. (At the time, Iran and Iraq were at war, and America favored Iraq.) Iraq then sought assistance from the West, and got what it wanted from Britain’s MI6. The C.I.A. offered similar training in counter-terrorism throughout the Middle East. “We were helping our allies everywhere we had a liaison,” the former station chief told me. Inspectors recalled seeing the body of an airplane—which appeared to be used for counter-terrorism training—when they visited a biological-weapons facility near Salman Pak in 1991, ten years before September 11th. It is, of course, possible for such a camp to be converted from one purpose to another. The former C.I.A. official noted, however, that terrorists would not practice on airplanes in the open. “That’s Hollywood rinky-dink stuff,” the former agent said. “They train in basements. You don’t need a real airplane to practice hijacking. The 9/11 terrorists went to gyms. But to take one back you have to practice on the real thing.”

Salman Pak was overrun by American troops on April 6th. Apparently, neither the camp nor the former biological facility has yielded evidence to substantiate the claims made before the war."

Here we go with the celebrity subject again.  Also I don't want the Spears family used as a standard against which to select our national leaders. 

Bush "anticipated" this war as far back as 1999 when he said if he ever had the chance to invade Iraq, he would, so he could be seen as a war-time President and thus have a successful presidency.  This was two years BEFORE 9/11 happened and one year before he was President.

So this nonsense of "not anticipating war" is just another Bush lie, and I would encourage anyone who is truly interested in the "integrity" of George W. Bush to read the link I provided below in its entirety because it is quite revealing.  It not only includes this tidbit about his wanting to invade Iraq but also shows, once again, how an innocent man who was his ghost writer on a book (and also a family friend of the Bushes) had his character attacked after the Karen Hughes and others came in, realized that Bush said too much, and the author (Mr. Herskowitz) was fired, citing personal habits that interfered with his writing -- totally false and another example of how Bushies will destroy anyone -- even friends of the family.  It shows just how despicable they all are.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm

Second:  His comment regarding the economic crisis:  "You know, I'm the president during this period of time, but I think when the history of this period is written, people will realize a lot of the decisions that were made on Wall Street took place over a decade or so, before I arrived in president," Bush said.

He threw his own father under the bus on this one because the administration in control "over a decade or so" before Bush's installment as President was Bush 41.

Third:  Bush said that he regrets that he was unable to change the partisan tone in Washington -- one that permeated his presidency.

"I didn't go into this naively; I knew it would be tough," he said. "But I also knew that the president has the responsibility to try to elevate the tone.

And, frankly, it just didn't work, much as I'd like to have it work."

"9/11 unified the country, and that was a moment where Washington decided to work together," he said. "I think one of the big disappointments of the presidency has been the fact that the tone in Washington got worse, not better."

9/11 DID bring the people of this country together until BUSH, through his actions, brought about the divisions and the low morale that exists today and might never disappear.  The tone in Washington got worse because Bush continually thumbed his nose at the Constitution and at the Congress with all his "signing statements," "executive orders," playing deadly politics with outting a CIA agent, etc., etc., etc.  He laughed and joking about WMDs, pretending to look for them under his desk, and quipping, "Nope.  They're not there."  He showed his contempt for our brave soldiers during a ceremony where he was distributing medals to the survivors of soldiers who had been killed and told a griefstricken mother, "Now, don't go selling this on eBay."  (heh heh, smirk smirk)  He has used every conceivable opportunity to "raise the terror level" whenever it was politically convenient in order to keep this country in a constant state of fear and submission.

He has only ever cared about the richest top 1%-ers in this country.  The current (and never-ending) "bailout" will continue to make his rich criminal cronies even richer, and that's fine because we always have enough money to do THAT.  We just never have enough money to help the citizens of the USA.  Indeed, to suggest that we might even need help results in accusations of us being lazy or living beyond our means, etc.  There is no doubt about it.  All these "bailouts" are Bush's babies (complete with same secrecy and lack of transparency which has become his trademark), and buying up banks is fascism, plain and simple.  He can't blame Clinton, can't blame his father, and he can't blame Obama. 

We still have way too much time (in my opinion) left with him as the Commander-in-Chief, and he can do a lot more damage (besides all the safety regulations he is in a frenzy to dismantle, each of which that will make Americans UNSAFE).

With all the things he has done and is continuing to do, the only worry on this board is whether or not the Supreme Court will overthrow the will of the people (which could be very convenient for Bush in instituting martial law and promoting himself to "Dictator-in-Chief," the prospect about which he's "joked" on three separate occasions.  I wonder when the last time was that Scalia went hunting with Cheney and what their plans for this whole birth certificate non-issue are.

I suppose if the Supreme Court refuses to hear the case, then everyone on this board will say the Supreme Court is hiding something and go on an anti-Supreme Court tirade for a few months.

Or they might just let it go and return to questioning the "true motive" behind Obama getting his daughters a puppy (the "timing" of which has already been questioned on this board, which is even more bizarre).

All these terrible things that Bush has done over the last eight years -- and is still doing -- including stating that the Constitution is just a (insert Rev. Wright's "God" phrase here) piece of paper.  (How telling that I can't even properly quote the President of the United States because his language is too vulgar.)  I'm ashamed that Bush has not only talked that Constitutional talk but has consistently walked that Constitutional walk, as well.

His "divide and conquer" technique has certainly worked, as is evidenced by a quick look at this board and the negative judgment of the President-Elect before he has even taken the oath of office.

I've stated before that I will support Obama, as I supported Bush (before Bush gave me a TON of reasons not to).  However, it's clear to me that no matter how much Obama proves he loves this country, no matter how hard he works to unite us once again, no matter how devoted he is to bringing back the "American Dream," and no matter how hard he works to fix all the damage done by Bush, there are certain people on this board that will still invent reasons to condemn him, and they'll continue to jump from one non-issue to another non-issue.

I wonder where they all were during eight years of Bush's contempt for the Constitution and how loud their voices were in disapproval of his actions.

Bush can try to rewrite history all he wants, but I will remember what he did and what he's still doing.

I keep hoping that Krazy Katherine (Harris) will begin to spill her guts about it all since the Bushes have turned their backs on her, after she saw to it that he took Florida.  She's probably waiting for her payback and isn't getting it from them.

Living a responsible life with care and reverence for life seems to have been pushed to the side in these times, though.  I do believe that in many  instances, not all but many, abortion is being used as a means of birth control. In fact, I am absolutely positive about that because I transcribe many reports where women have had multiple abortions on a continuing basis.  And to think that anyone would vote that a teenager has a right to an abortion without parental involvement is chilling. 

Imagine you were living in America in 1956 and someone would predict that, in the span of half a century, the culture in America would be so transformed that homosexuality would be an acceptable and even celebrated lifestyle choice, Christianity would be relegated to a private matter not to be considered in questions of public conduct, the culture that had dominated America and was an integral part of its success would be condemned as the cause of most evil in the world, the family would be on the verge of collapse as an institution, children would be listening to music that spewed obscenities and celebrated random sexual encounters and violence, teens would be having sex so commonly that some sexually transmitted diseases would become epidemic in that age group, and abortion would be the law of the land with a million and a half such procedures performed annually. Predictions of such a complete collapse of basic morality would have been considered so ridiculous that it would have been deemed possible only by the complete capitualtion of our nation's leadership to pure evil. 

The collapse of morality in this nation was not organic nor imposed by force but orchestrated as part of many interlocking marketing campaigns that had as their goal the repackaging of evil in a seductive wrapping and selling it to the American public. In some cases, the motivation was socio-political while in other cases the motivation was purely financial. Yet in each case the underlying techniques of manipulaiting the public are essentially the same. 

The only way to combat the manipulation around us to become aware of its existence. Manipulation is rarely as effective once the manipulated are cognizent of their fate. 

Ther is an entire laundry list of movements in contemporary American culture. Although many conservatives are in some sense aware of the problem of manipulation of the public sentiment, it is still quite jarring to see all the dots connected.

The problem we face is not just with leftists but also with corporate executives who see nothing questionable in artificially generating a desire for products through deceit. The forces of the left merely picked up on these techniques and applied them to sell their product. That corporations manipulated the public to sell soap, automobiles, and cigarettes instead of political views, sexual practices, and anti-Christian bigotry does not make such manipulation a morally acceptable practice. A wonderful example of this is the legislation just voted on in Missouri for embryonic stem cell research. The largest contributor to this (quote) cause (unquote) was the company who stood to benefit the most from the research.  


I say we need a call for our culture to return to principles rooted in the Christian faith. The problem is that much of the Church in America has already succumbed to the very illness that needs combatting. It is an easy target to aim at liberal churches who have surrendered on traditional morality. Much of the shallowness of contemporary Evangelical Christianity is a direct result of their adopting modern marketing techniques (as seen in the megachurches) as a means for advancing the Gospel. Such techniques may produce numbers but not necessarily disciples. Look at what has happened to the Episcopal church as a good example of having lost one's way.  They are losing members by the thousands.

The American public has for a generation been sold evil as good and it has taken this long for a crack in the facade to appear. For anyone interested in the future of this country, I think it is time to realize that abortion is not a right. It never was and it never will be.  For every woman who cries KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY BODY, there is a child, call it what you will if that will assauge your conscience, who has no voice at all.  And when you are sitting with your family at Christmas or Thanksgiving and watching the children play, try and justify to yourself the ones who never had a chance to be there.   

I myself abused the welfare program for one year as a 19-year-old unwed mother.  Well, kind of.  It was not an experience I ever wanted to repeat.  However, my feeling is that the difficulty lies in determining who is truly deserving and needy of welfare and who is just taking advantage of the free ride.  And at what point do we also punish the children of ne'er-do-wells by denying benefits.  I guess that's my concern.

OK, now I've got to get some typing done or I'll end up on welfare from losing my job!!

.

I voted by mail for McCain/Palin.  Here's why.

Obama has a new ad out talking about taking the day off of work to vote.  Let's face it, everyone taking the day off will NOT help the economy.

Obama keeps pointing out he will go through the budget line by line.  last I knew the President does not have the ability to line item veto.

He speaks of redistributing the wealth and that it starts from the bottom up.  Who defines what bottom is? And why should someone take my money or even my father's money since he makes over 250, 000 and give it to someone else?

And let's not forget the act of treason that was swept under the rug when he spoke to the Iraqi leader basically stating the current President is not capable?  I can post links if needed.

McCain has his bad points as well but honestly, I would sleep better at night knowing him and Sarah are at the helm.

Kaydie and LA difference.

You need to get out into the real world. From your post, it seems like you are living in a dream world.

When you have someone in your family assaulted and spends weeks in the hospital on the "edge", you will see why our right to own a gun is necessary. I certainly will not hesitate to shoot if I'm being threatened or to protect my family.

Only criminals use guns indiscriminantly and they don't care about life itself, or haven't you noticed? And that brings me to the point of the death penalty. Those that use a gun to commit a crime should receive the death penalty if they kill someone. I believe the death penalty is a deterent; i.e., some criminals with brains think twice before killing, but others do not.

I won't even go into your pub or Roe vs. Wade. They are so asinine, they don't deserve a reply.

From what I understand the Obamas did look at the public school system in DC.  Unfortunately, it's not terrific.  Don't blame the feds - blame the people who insisted on election Marion Barry ad nauseum to one position of power or another in that city. 

Picture yourself as a parent of a public school child.  Now picture yourself as that same parent, yet your child has to go through metal detectors and screening and more every time they want to go to class because the President's kids go to school with you.  Now picture yourself as that same parent because there is a kidnapping threat or death threat to those same kids of the president.

The Obamas made the only choice that was viable for their children and for other children who will be going to school with them.  Public schools are not set up for the type of security that POTUS' kids need.

And let's be realistic.  This POTUS needs a helluva lot more security than others did.  I love the guy and I voted for him, but I'm not blind to the security issues that are faced with him being POTUS.

x

1.  Why are so soon old and so late smart?  (Amish saying.)

2.  Insanity:   Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

3.  You cannot make the poor rich by making the rich poor.

4.  Life is not a zero-sum game.  Abundance is not a finite pie.  If I have a slice of it, that does not reduce your portion.  It has always been said:  Invest in land; they ain’t making any more of it.  True.  But wealth is something that is created.  If  you want a bigger piece,  you can make your own pie.  The raw ingredients are all around you.

5.  Traits of those who succeed in life:  Flexibility, assertiveness, tenacity, optimism, intelligence, distancing ability, group consciousness, ability to assimilate knowledge, capacity to find meaning in life, courage. William Helmreich in a study of survivors.

6.  Why are we punishing these traits?  Isn’t this very bad for our gene pool?

7.  Why are we rewarding laziness, foolish behavior and dishonesty?  Isn’t this even worse for our gene pool?

8.  Why has the distinction between a hand up and a handout been lost? 

9.  I have done fairly well in life and will voluntarily help those who truly are in need.  Sometimes I will even share with those who have caused their own problems.  But if  you force me to do this it is called robbery.

10.  There is a reason why, with all the billions of dollars’ worth of humanitarian aid we have sent to third-world countries, nothing much ever changes.  We feed a few starving people just enough to produce even more starving smaller people.  Human life is not supportable in some of these places.  In others, centuries-old cultural patterns and hostilities exist that cause wars and genocides.  Do we think we are going to change any of this with some food and medicine?  If we step in to try to halt it, our motives are questioned.  If we do not, our motives are still questioned.

I will never be a captain of industry and I know it.  But I am a really good worker bee and always have been.  I have grown a thick skin and do not take much personally.  I try for excellence and I do more than expected and sometimes I come up with great ideas.  I’ve always been the go-to gal for my bosses and they come to rely to me.  But I do not have the will or the drive to run my own company.

However,  I do not begrudge those who have the necessary traits - and are willing to take the risks -  their success!  I do not envy their corner offices.  My nose is not put out of joint because they have bigger houses and drive better cars and take vacations to exotic places.  I realize that there (but for a complete lack of  ambition) go I. 

I also do not envy their 60-hour work weeks, the myriad business decisions they have to make: Hiring, firing, generating new business, figuring how their companies will survive in this weird economy.  I just do my job, then I get to clock out.  Cool!

I have always landed on my feet through some pretty severe reversals and I have no doubt that I will again.  It is sad that so many Americans have truly lost the can-do attitude that built this country.  Instead, they are waiting for somebody to fill their gas tank, pay their mortgage, feed them, heal them and kiss every boo-boo.  Our founding fathers would not recognize their descendents. 

You are right, we could argue until we're blue in the face.  No man, except for Jesus Christ, has ever been perfect, and that's the point.  Man is his own downfall everytime.  That's because of sin.  Christians, Jews, pagans, Hindus, Muslims etc. etc. all have the same problem, and it's sin.  Until we leave the Earthly realm man is never free of it, but Jesus paid the price for it.  Yes, I believe the Word of God is inerrant.  I feel you have to believe it all or not at all.  It's either right or wrong.  I don't expect you to see it the same way, but I can assure you I haven't drank the Kool-Aid.  I have read many, many different historical and Christian writings.  I highly recommend the book The Case for Christ about a atheist who took a year to research Christianity before making a decision whether or not to accept it.  Also, another good book is I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist  (from your writings it doesn't sound like you're an Atheist though)  Ultimately though it comes down to a leap of Faith.  The definition of faith is believing in something I cannot see.  It's hard for me not to look at nature without seeing God's hand all over it, and as the Bible says, The Heavens declare His Glory.

I have enjoyed our debate, but I am moving on...