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I saw a documentary on the abuse of boys in United Arab Emirates...sm

Posted By: Democrat on 2005-09-23
In Reply to: Bush Waives Saudi Trafficking Sanctions - see article inside.

as donkey racers and it was downright heartbreaking. I would adopt them ALL if I could.

I don't think the US should throw a penny their way. Only the rich would benefit anyway.


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Yes, we needed the Arab Emirates...
to protect our ports! That was brilliant!! And look what a great job he's done with protecting our citizens and assisting them with the last 2 hurricanes. Heckuva job, Bushie! Don't forget to put Harriett Myers on the supreme court! He must be a brainiac! His instincts are superhuman! Mission Accomplished! - the way he landed on that ship - my hero! he even wore that banana hammock so well!! Woo-hoo! We must be the most admired country in the whole world!!
At least he won't select the Arab emirates to protect our ports
x
New documentary about 9/11

It's rather lengthy but definitely worth the time.  The number of *coincidental* events is bone chilling


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848


Just saw a documentary the other night..
about Uday and Qusay, Saddam's sons.  It was SICKENING.  Iraq was hardly stable unless you call people having their ankles held in stock-like contraptions while sombody beats them for 30 minutes on the bottoms of their feet with a baseball bat, prior to hanging them upside down from a cable from the ceiling and beating them all over with the same bat.  If you compare the number of deaths in Iraq to the number of murders and useless violence in America you could say that WE are living in a far worse war zone.  I say it was worth a try, and we have to be patient, something Americans are increasingly lost the ability to do in this add water and mix world that we live in.
watched a documentary

on SP last night.  Did you know she went back to work 2 days after giving birth to little Flip?  Have mercy, any of us who have been blessed with children (not punished by them as Obama would think) knows that all the uterine tenacles have not even been detached in that short of a period.  I hope she wore a big old set of bloomers on her first day back.


 


Documentary this weekend

This was on last weekend and will be repeated again this weekend.  Good luck trying to condone the contents in this show.


The drive-bys will NOT report this.  It's amazing that literally anyone would want to get news that someone reportedly smarter (that's sarcasm, but true) edited, twisted, and omitted.


http://www.foxnews.com/hannitysamerica/index.html


Wait for the documentary...of course, you won't believe that either...sm
You and others here were well informed and still voted for Obama.

However, massive numbers of voters know/knew next to nothing about Obama.

You can't change those facts, no matter how the media tries to twist it.
Play nice, boys.



Yeah, these boys are something to be proud of (scroll down fairly far):














We recently drove out to San Angelo, TX to meet up with our good friend Chris, a Marine who offered to take us out shooting and teach us the finer points of peace through superior firepower.
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_08.jpg Chris has some GREAT bumper stickers on his car.
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_01.jpg "Phased plasma pulse-laser in the forty watt range... "
"Just what you see, pal."

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_03.jpg Chris brought a wide selection. Everything from 22s to 357 hand cannons.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_02.jpg "Leftist troll 12 o' clock."

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_04.jpg Can you tell I'm a big John Woo fan?
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_07.jpg When I hold you in my arms
And I feel my finger on your trigger
I know nobody can do me no harm
Because happiness is a warm gun...

-Lennon/McCartney

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_11.jpg
You feeling lucky, punk?
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_10.jpg
Is there anything sweeter than the sound of shotgun shells ejecting?
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_05.jpg
Chris is one guy you do not want to f--k with.
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/misc/guns/guns_09.jpg Chris was kind enough to loan us some weapons to take back with us, so thanks to him ProtestWarrior HQ is now heavily armed. So to all the leftists that want to completely disarm the populace, all we have to say is come get some.








Where Boys Grow up to be Jihadis.

I am attaching a link to a New York Times article written by Andrea Elliot this past Sunday.  Be prepared, it is somewhat long, so dig in!


It is about her findings of the peope and the reasoning behind the attacks in Morrocco.  It is a very interesting read. 


I am also attaching a link to NPR's Fresh Air for a followup interview that she gave today in regards to her article which really sums up the whole experience for her.


This story epitomizes why I believe our interventionalist policies in dealing with the middle east and Islamic terrorism in general is failing and why we have to change our polices as soon as possible.  It is sobering and I hope you find it interesting and enlightening.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/magazine/25tetouan-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16733559


She's got what it takes to stand up to the boys....
I'm working, so I don't have time to read through today. So if this has been posted before, please forgive me.

But if I had any doubts before about Gov. Palin, I think I've just been put in my place!!!


McCain aides whose judgment I trust are impressed by Sarah Palin. One was particularly amused by this exchange: A nervous young McCain staffer took it upon himself to explain to Palin the facts of life in a national campaign, the intense scrutiny she’d be under from the media, the viciousness of the assault that she’d be facing, etc.:

Palin: “Thanks for the warning. By the way, do you know what they say the difference is between a hockey mom and a Pit Bull?”

McCain aide: “No, Governor.”

Palin: “A hockey mom wears lipstick.”
SP unknown. She's in the arena with the big boys.
?
those boys were not charged with a racist crime -
they were charged with burglary, disorderly conduct, and theft.

According to what I read, they cannot be charged with a hate crime because Obama is a political figure and therefore it would be considered a "free speech" issue and not a hate crime. If he were an everyday citizen, then he could be charged with a hate crime.

Either way, for Palin and Obama, it was repulsive to me!
They are nice boys. Learn how to post pictures. nm

Many Arab and Pakistanis
Are Christian. They are not all Muslims.
Arab African????

Did you ever see the Arab professor speak about this? sm
It might help you to have an Arab point of view. All of you are making a huge mistake by not knowing the enemy and allowing yourself to be swept away by politics. This is so much bigger than politics.  Many of you have lost any objectivity and reality that you ever had to turn all your attention and your focus on hating Bush. 
But it was during the1848 Israel/Arab war
that Israel was created, sending millions of Palestinians refugees out of Palestine into neighboring Arab countries and occupying Palestine.
But it was during the1948 Israel/Arab war
that Israel was created, sending millions of Palestinians refugees out of Palestine into neighboring Arab countries and occupying Palestine.
How do Arab leaders make their speeches? (sm)
If you could post a link to a video it would be appreciated.  I really would like to see what you're talking about here.
And during a time when Arab linguists are needed the most by the military --

This could actually be funny if it wasn't so stupid.  The question Do you work off duty with the local community theater? speaks volumes.


Servicemembers Legal Defense Network: Army Dismisses Gay Arabic Linguist 'Outed' By Anonymous Email Campaign


7/27/2006 11:02:00 AM





To: National and State Desks


Contact: Rebecca Sawyer of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, 202-328-3244 ext. 102 or rasawyer@sldn.org


WASHINGTON, July 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The U.S. Army recently discharged a highly regarded Arabic linguist who was the target of an anonymous email outing campaign. Former Sergeant Bleu Copas was stationed at Fort Bragg, N.C., and was a member of the prestigious 82nd Airborne Division. A decorated Sergeant who received impressive performance reviews, Copas also performed in the 82nd Airborne Chorus. His dismissal, under the federal Don't Ask, Don't Tell ban on lesbian, gay and bisexual personnel, brings the total number of Arabic language specialists dismissed under the ban to at least 55. Neither Copas nor his command know who was the source of the email campaign.


'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' has become a far too effective, and convenient, weapon of vengeance in our armed forces, said Sharra E. Greer, director for law and policy for Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN), which provided legal counsel to Copas. Anyone with an axe to grind -- a former partner or roommate, or an angry relative, for example -- can end an otherwise promising career simply by employing rumor and hearsay. Service members like Sergeant Copas, who are making important contributions to our national defense, are finding themselves increasingly vulnerable under the law. The only way to protect our men and women in uniform from such insidious outing campaigns is to repeal 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' once and for all.


In August 2005, an anonymous individual emailed Copas's unit, alleging there was an online profile of a unit member identifying them as gay. Despite clear instructions that investigations into sexual orientation are only to be commenced when a service member's command has credible evidence indicating the service member is gay, Copas's command nonetheless asked him about his sexual orientation and went on to launch a full investigation into allegations about him. The command-appointed investigating officer interviewing Copas asked such questions as, Do you work off duty with the local community theater? and Do you know or are you aware of anyone who believes you are a homosexual? He also recommended conducting an inquiry ... into the possibility of further homosexual conduct by member(s) of the (unit). Despite never learning who made the original allegations against him, Sergeant Copas was dismissed from the Army in January.


The ban on gay service members serves no purpose except to further discrimination at the expense of our military readiness, said Copas. Most troops care about their colleagues' job performance, not their sexual orientation, and this law is past due for repeal. Those of us who want to serve our country should not be barred from doing so simply because of outdated prejudice. The gay ban punishes every service member, even those who never tell and the straight troops who lose trusted, and trained, fellow soldiers.


Since 1993, more than 11,000 service members have been dismissed under the gay ban, according to the Department of Defense. A February 2005 report from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that the Pentagon has fired 322 language specialists who had ... skills in a foreign language that DoD had considered to be especially important. The report also found that nearly 800 specialists, including intelligence analysts, divers and combat controllers, were fired despite having some training in an occupation identified ... as 'critical.' The House of Representatives is currently considering legislation to repeal the law, with 118 bi-partisan members supporting the measure.


For more information on Don't Ask, Don't Tell, visit http://www.sldn.org.


---


Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is a national, non-profit legal services, watchdog and policy organization dedicated to ending discrimination against and harassment of military personnel affected by Don't Ask, Don't Tell and related forms of intolerance. For more information, visit http://www.sldn.org.


http://www.usnewswire.com/


-0-


/© 2006 U.S. Newswire 202-347-2770/


Abuse of children and the right
Hold on just a minute....from your post you are making it sound like conservatives and the right condone molestation of children. If that is what you were implying you are absolutely wrong. Please, please, please do not categorize all Christians and conservatives with the wacko extreme cults that dare do these things to children. I believe a few weeks ago there was a long thread on the C-board about child molestation. Personally, I think anyone who hurts a child should die...period. If it's sexual molestation the very least that should happen to a male offender is castration...I'd prefer the death penalty...

Again, this implied generalization that all conservatives are racists, homophobes, and child molesters is absolutely wrong.
then again, perhaps it's abuse of power like
nm
I am not saying that there are people who abuse
the system and what not. I am just saying that there are real, honest, hardworking people that are having a hard time right now - regardless of their political affiliation. I'm not saying Obama would be superior or vice versa, I am just saying that some people would not find his remark funny.
So abuse of power is OK by you?
x
Abuse in Iraq as bad or worse
What I would like to know is this: Where is the outrage from all those who were so eager to go in and get *the brutal dictator*?


Abuse in Iraq as bad or worse than in Saddam's day: Allawi


LONDON (AFP) - Human rights abuses in Iraq now are as bad, or worse, than they when Saddam Hussein was in power, the nation's first post-Saddam prime minister was quoted as saying.

In an interview with the Observer newspaper in London, Iyad Allawi pointed an accusing finger at the interior ministry, and alleged that a lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed during interrogation.

People are doing the same as (in) Saddam Hussein's time and worse, said Allawi, an prominent opponent of Saddam who steered the US-backed interim government in Baghdad until April this year.

It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam Hussein and now we are seeing the same things.

Allawi's remarks came two weeks after US troops raided a secret prison in Iraq and found about 170 detainees in need of water, food and medical attention.

Graphic pictures released by the Committee of Muslim Scholars, the main Sunni religious organisation in Iraq, showed prisoners with severe burns, massive bruising and welts on their bodies.

US military commanders and diplomats called the abuse intolerable, pressuring elected prime minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari into ordering a joint Iraqi-US inquiry.

Interior Minister Bayan Baqer Solagh has denied claims that he commands death squads targeting the Sunni minority, adding that only a few detainees were punched and hit in the prison and that US forces knew of its existence.

Allawi told The Observer that the interior ministry, though not Solagh, was at the heart of the matter.

I am not blaming the minister himself, but the rank and file are behind the secret dungeons and some of the executions that are taking place, he was quoted as saying.

He also said: We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated.

A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations. We are even witnessing Sharia courts based on Islamic law that are trying people and executing them.

He said that if immediate action is not taken, the disease infecting (the interior ministry) will become contagious and spread to all ministries and structures of Iraq's government.

More broadly, Allawi warned of the danger of Iraq disintegrating in chaos, saying: Iraq is the centrepiece of this region. If things go wrong, neither Europe nor the United States will be safe.


Abuse of power/hypocrisy seems to be
What is clear is that, slimy or not, she still used her office in an inappropriate manner to influence the outcome of a family dispute. What's ethical about that? The slimy trooper and the disposition of his divorce/custody case is supposed to be left up to the family courts and it not typically resolved by manipulation and interference by the Governor's office, now is it? Ethically challenged ethics clean-up maiden. Not my idea of a great pick.
Do you have any concept of what abuse of power is?
if you can turn off the hate machine long enough to remember how to do it. It was not Governor Palin's role to interfere in divorce/custody proceedings. Sister Palin could not have done what Governor Palin tried to do. She abuse the power of her office. We have already had 8 years of that kind of malarky. Most of us are not up for another 4. Got it?
Abuse of power is SP's middle name.
megalomaniac behaviors. I am particularly impressed by the "woman scorned" tantrum she had against her opponents that ensued within moments after she took office. Looks like Alaska's busy little ethics maid overlooked her own glass house.
Yes, there are people who abuse the system, but...
you can't apply that to everyone on welfare.  There are a lot of good people who don't abuse the system who have to be on welfare. 
The United Nations has always been a joke.
They never accomplish anything, never take responsibility for anything and want everything for themselves.

There is nothing wrong with Sarah Palin as a VP candidate. Besides, McCain has a right to pick who he wants.
United Daughters of the Confederacy
I'm off to a meeting.  Just wondering what comments this will bring. LOL
A united country must be socialist? (sm)
I don't even have anything to say to that rediculous assumption. 
In which United States do minorities
Please elighten, oh wise one.
In which United States do minorities
Please elighten, oh wise one.
Agreed. It's abuse of power AND a crime
nm
because slander is the 1st stage of violence and abuse...sm
the next step is physical abuse, the next is murder.

As it happens so often.


Cutting waste, fraud and abuse...They should be

and we ARE talking about the President of the United States here...
he is not running for the senate. He is running for the top spot. Obviously the postings I made before about Marxist leanings were not so off the wall...if the Marxists are high-fiving him in open letters to newspapers. And not just any Marxist...son of the big Kahuna. Don't understand how someone can consider abstinence and sex education valid issues to attack a candidate's family for pete's sake and totally ignore this little revelation. How sweet it is to wear blinders, I suppose.
Do what? Screw the rest of the United States?

Sarah Palin, United Nations, she has
.
The United States is a country in decline.

United States Senate...who voted for what

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00137


Do you actually look up anything?


This is simply NOT TRUE. Read what the United

Mine Workers of America have to say about it.  I've copied and pasted it in its entirety.  It completely REFUTES yet another false claim that's been repeated on this board.


McCain campaign’s last minute distortion of Obama’s coal record an act of desperation






date: 


November 3, 2008




For immediate release?: 
 

United Mine Workers of America (UMWA) International President Cecil E. Roberts issued the following statement today:


“Sen. John McCain and his running mate, Gov. Sarah Palin, have once again demonstrated that they are willing to say anything and do anything to win this election. Their latest twisting of the truth is about coal and some comments Sen. Obama made last January about the future use of coal in America.


“Here is what the McCain campaign left out of Sen. Obama’s actual words: ‘But this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion. Because the fact of the matter is, is that right now we are getting a lot of our energy from coal. And China is building a coal-powered plant once a week. So what we have to do then is figure out how can we use coal without emitting greenhouse gases and carbon. And how can we sequester that carbon and capture it.’


“Sen. Obama has been consistent with that message not just in the coalfields, but everywhere else he goes as well. Despite what the McCain campaign and some far right-wing blogs would have Americans believe, Sen. Obama has been and remains a tremendous supporter of coal and the future of coal.


“I noted that Sen. McCain even went so far yesterday as to say he has always been a supporter of coal. I wonder, then, how he can justify his statement at a Senate hearing in 2000 that, ‘In a perfect world we would like to transition away from coal entirely,’ and his leading role in sponsoring legislation in 2003 that would have wiped out 78 percent of all coal production in America?


“Fortunately, UMWA members, their families and their friends and neighbors in the coalfields know all too well what is going on here. They’re not going to fall for it, and we urge others throughout America who care about coal to review what the candidates’ records on coal actually are. We are confident that once they do, and once they see the many other benefits to working families of voting for Sen. Obama, they will make the right choice for themselves and their families


People's United Means Action
I had heard it before but didn't know what it meant.
Someone whose loyalties lie with the United States of America
nm
N. KOREA THREATENS UNITED STATES
N. Korea Threatens Military Action if U.S. Imposes Blockade
Saturday, June 13, 2009


June 10: South Korean soldiers use binoculars to look at the North side from Imjingak, north of Seoul, South Korea.
June 10: South Korean soldiers use binoculars to look at the North side from Imjingak, north of Seoul, South Korea.
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea vowed on Saturday to embark on a uranium enrichment program and "weaponize" all the plutonium in its possession as it rejected the new U.N. sanctions meant to punish the communist nation for its recent nuclear test.

North Korea also said it would not abandon its nuclear programs, saying it was an inevitable decision to defend itself from what it says is a hostile U.S. policy and its nuclear threat against the North.

The North will take "resolute military action" if the United States or its allies try to impose any "blockade" on it, the ministry said in a statement carried by the North's official Korean Central News Agency.

The ministry did not elaborate if the blockade refers to an attempt to stop its ships or impose sanctions.

North Korea describes its nuclear program as a deterrent against possible U.S. attacks. Washington says it has no intention of attacking and has expressed fear that North Korea is trying to sell its nuclear technology to other nations.

The statement came hours after the U.N. Security Council approved tough new sanctions on North Korea to punish it for its latest nuclear test on May 25.

The U.N. resolution imposes new sanctions on the reclusive communist nation's weapons exports and financial dealings, and allows inspections of suspect cargo in ports and on the high seas.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526090,00.html
this is slandering the President of the United States..sm
saying that the President is stupid WITHOUT having ANY proof of this.
Hey, all you liberals out there! It's YOUR fault that priests sexually abuse

I'm sure the usual suspects from the Conservative board also agree with the conclusions of THIS Pennsylvania nut case and will be ready to blame Kennedy for starting trouble.  LMAO!


Conservatives are getting weirder by the hour.


 


Kennedy slams Santorum for church sex abuse remarks



WASHINGTON --In a rare personal attack on the Senate floor Wednesday, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy called Pennsylvania Republican Rick Santorum self-righteous and insensitive for his remarks linking Boston's liberal reputation to the clergy sex abuse scandal.


In recent days, Santorum has refused to back down from comments he made in a 2002 column, in which he said promoting alternative lifestyles spawns aberrant behavior, such as priests molesting children. He went on to say that it was not surprising that liberal Boston was at the center of the scandal.


"The people of Boston are to blame for the clergy sexual abuse? That is an irresponsible, insensitive and inexcusable thing to say," said Kennedy, D-Mass., in a speech from the Senate chamber.


Kennedy called for Santorum to apologize to the people of Boston and across the nation, noting that the clergy abuse happened all across the country, in "red states and blue states, in the north and in the south, in big cities and small."


On Wednesday, Santorum spokesman Robert Traynham said the Pennsylvania conservative recognizes that the church abuse scandal was not just in Boston.


He said Santorum "was speaking to a broader cultural argument about the need for everyone to take these issues very, very seriously."


Santorum's initial observations were in a July 2002 column for Catholic Online, and came back to public light last month and earlier this week in newspaper accounts.


"Priests, like all of us, are affected by culture," Santorum wrote in the Catholic Online column. "When the culture is sick, every element in it becomes infected. While it is no excuse for this scandal, it is no surprise that Boston, a seat of academic, political and cultural liberalism in America, lies at the center of the storm."


Rep. John Tierney, D-Mass., accused Santorum of abject ignorance, and Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., called the senator's rationale bizarre.


"As a prosecutor in Massachusetts, I saw some of the worst criminals who had abused children and not once did I hear them hide behind Sen. Santorum's bizarre claim that the state was responsible for their acts," Kerry said.


David Clohessy, national director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, said Santorum's column tries to minimize the abuse scandal, and imply that "some vague, larger societal defects" somehow caused clergy to assault children.


"In 2002, we gave Sen. Santorum the benefit of the doubt, assuming he was not aware of the scope of the abuse crisis," said Clohessy. "In 2005, it's hard to understand how he could repeat and stand by such misguided and harmful comments."


The scandal began in Boston in early 2002 when internal church files released under court order revealed abusive priests were transferred from parish to parish rather than removed from ministry. Cardinal Bernard Law resigned as archbishop later that year amid criticism over his handling of the crisis.


A 2003 investigation by Attorney General Thomas Reilly found that at least 1,000 children were abused by more than 235 priests and church workers between 1940 and 2000. And the archdiocese has paid out more than $120 million to settle abuse claims since 1950.


Reilly, a Democratic candidate for governor, also criticized Santorum on Wednesday. "For him to equate liberalism with child abuse is disgraceful," he said. "It's embarrassing for him and embarrassing to his party and his party should disown him." "



"
© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
 













"




And yet you STILL refuse to condemn child sexual abuse!

When this was first posted, it was posted before there were separate political boards.  Still, there was no response.


You people have done nothing by drive-by sniping posts for the last couple weeks, to the point where some of them had to be removed by the moderator.


Yet you're AFRAID to post outrage over child sexual abuse? 


I guess we can leave it at that.  You're obviously more outraged that I posted regarding this subject than you are at the subject itself.


And THAT speaks volumes.


Pure Race Definition: One Without Neglect & Abuse
nm
United Methodist Church Calls For Withdrawal ...sm

Sweet Victory: United Methodist Church Calls For Withdrawal


It's one thing when former high-ranking members of your own Administration come out against your war. It's another thing when two-thirds of the country calls the invasion and occupation a mistake. It's really something when your own church issues a statement urging you to pull out the troops now.


Last week, the United Methodist Church Board of Church and Society--the social action committee of the church that both President Bush and Vice President Cheney belong to--resoundingly passed a resolution calling for withdrawal with only two 'no' votes and one abstention.


As people of faith, we raise our voice in protest against the tragedy of the unjust war in Iraq, the statement read. Thousands of lives have been lost and hundreds of billions of dollars wasted in a war the United States initiated and should never have fought.... We grieve for all those whose lives have been lost or destroyed in this needless and avoidable tragedy. Military families have suffered undue hardship from prolonged troop rotations in Iraq and loss of loved ones. It is time to bring them home.


The board also issued a strong statement against torture, urging Congress to create an independent, bipartisan commission to investigate detention and interrogation practices at Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan.


It is my hope and prayer that our statement against the war in Iraq will be heard loud and clear by our fellow United Methodists, President Bush and Vice President Cheney, said Jim Winkler, General Secretary of the UMC's Board of Church and Society. Conservative and liberal board members worked together to craft a strong statement calling for the troops to come home and for those responsible for leading us into this disastrous war to be held accountable.


With its bold stands against the Administration, the UMC is fulfilling the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who called for the church to be not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion but a thermostat that transformed the mores of society.


Bush has asserted that he entered Iraq on a direct order from God. Now, he has a direct order from his own church to leave. Is he listening?