I have seen unions do good and bad
Posted By: Kendra on 2008-10-29
In Reply to: I will address only one point s/m - gourdpainter
Did anyone take note of what happened with the last grocery strikes in California. The employees certainly did not end up better off after months of striking for a corrupt union. I have also seen them do very good things. They do keep wages high--sometimes, perhaps too high. Checkers at your grocery stores used to have to memorize codes and prices and everything else. Now, it is so simple that you and I can do it with no training whatsoever, thus, the self checkout, so maybe, just maybe, $20/hour with really good benefits is more than that job is worth at this point. I think that unions are good and bad, but the sanctity of the secret ballot needs to be preserved. Of course, this is just my opinion and some of you out there might disagree 200%.
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Unions
I am in total agreement with your synopsis of unions. Case in point: I work for one of the largest HMO's in the country as a MT, and our jobs are on the line. We belong to a 'union' (won't say which one), and without notice, the facility decided to use VR and guess what? The majority of our MT's are either jobless or working for dang near nothing. The union stood with management and let them take our jobs and then turned around and told us that 'there was nothing they could do about it'. Our country has gone to h#ll in a handbasket since deregulation (Reagan years). They deregulated every single job such as Gourdpainter pointed out, trucking. Look at the airlines and any other large company you can think of. The American worker is an and has been an endangered species and it saddens me that on the Repub and Dem sides that we are stuck in the middle and ultimatrly pay the price for their greed and neglect when it comes to their constituents. WE suffer - not them. They don't have to worry about what to do when they decide to retire, they don't have to worry about how to give their children a good education and certainly don't have to worry about how their families are fed. There was a time when unions did their best to protect the American worker but looking at what I personally deal with at this point in time - they are weak, useless and take your money and you can believe you get little or no representation when or if its needed. JMO.
those bad ol' unions
I love how the unions are always the secret cause of the problems. If demanding good pay and fair treatment can utterly destroy the economy, then maybe our economy is too unbalanced to be worth saving.
You're right, though. It's a lot easier to create a cheap job where workers are unprotected and uninsured, than it is to create a good job. And so the foreign car companies came flocking to the southern US to build their factories, and the US taxpayer, as always, picked up the cost of the uninsured. And now the business is bottoming out, and there's no safety net for the workers, because everybody was too busy trying to cut costs and complaining about those evil union workers up north.
What the unions have done lately
is negotiate bloated hourly pay rates and pension plans. The car manufacturers, of course, agreed. Couple that with executive pay and bonuses, the effect has been to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
I believe it was a triad, the unions, executives, and government meddling that has killed the auto industry.
Let's not leave out the government's part in this - long before the bailouts, government mandates and standards for manufacturing cars other than what people wish to buy. And since the government could not ban SUVs and trucks (apparently what many consumer wanted and still want) it attacks them in a different way.
We've all read claims that SUVs are 'responsible for highway deaths.' Why? Because the SUV driver walked away and the family of four driving a roller skate did not? Look for gas prices to go back up to four bucks and stay there. That will be to force us to drive tiny death trap cars. People were actually buying them when gas prices were high, but sales dropped when the per-gallon price got back down to two dollars.
Maybe there will also be some kind of tax based on vehicle size or weight, either on purchase, or to scoop more of us into the governmentm maw, a federal surtax when we reregister our current cars.
Unions, etc.
1. I agree that I kind of mixed up two points here. I was sort of confused about you saying I needed to educate myself on percentages, though. And I was being kind enough not to mention that we might not need such a large part of our budget going to the DOD had Mr. Bush not gotten us into at least one, if not two unwinnable wars with the loss of over 4,000 young American lives, on the basis of, shall we say, fibbing, or making up "facts on the ground" that were totally false. But hey, Mission Accomplished!
2. I don't think a transcription union would work - especially right now. Too many people are worried about keeping their jobs to complain about how our pay rate has actually decreased over the years rather than increased. 30 years ago I was earning 5 cents per line for a 50-character line, straight typing, correcting mistakes with white-out (so happy when correcting selectrics arrived) and managing 100 dollars a day. That amount actually meant something back then. Nowadays people are under so much stress, not knowing when the "other shoe is going to fall" that they are happy to have scraps, as long as it means they have a job.
3. I'm not exactly sure what happened with the UAW, other than being put under incredible pressure to make concession after concession, all while being made to look like the bad guys who were the cause of all the trouble. For myself, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to work on the line day after day, as was the case for some of my relatives. My husband's union is a very strong union. Every year he has gotten a raise in pay, he has vacation pay, health insurance, and a pension plan. I don't really think I provided you with a "cache of union slogans", but I am very thankful for the Ironworkers Union.
I think probably the end of unions is not far away. Union-busting seems to be a favorite activity of certain people. All I can tell you is that for my family, my husband was able to earn a living wage in his very dangerous occupation.
As I alluded to previously, in our great country we are entitled to our opinions. I thank God for that.
I swear this is all because of the unions. They will
nm
want to talk about unions?
the places i've seen around our area who have unions are pathetic. i've seen unions protect employees who come to work intoxicated, who don't come to work at all, who PLAY CARDS on work time, do what they want because their "union will protect" them. so if you are suggesting the union is American... that's pretty pathetic. if they were actually protect HARD WORKING AMERICANS, then i'd be fine with it.
you wanna talk about "jabs" at obama? i guess "a bunch of losers" would not be a jab?
i believe the unions were meant to
maybe part of the downfall is because of the lazy ones who rode on the backs of the hard workers.
that is the only part of a union that i could say i'm against. if you are not pulling your weight, enough... ya know?
regarding these MTs who cherry pick, i wish these companies would call them on it, give them notice and get rid of them... there are plenty of good MTs who would gladly take their place.
actually i have seen norma rae.. lol... it has been YEARS go though...
Deregulation of unions in US
Gourdie: I definitely agree, and I find it such a shame that the workers and consumers in this country cannot see what has happened. All this talk about OSHA, etc. has no meaning anymore because the backbone of these government offices have no backbone and don't give a gnat's tweeter how the American workers have and continue to suffer.
Profitable? Doing well? No unions?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oct2008/germ-o25.shtml
European Auto Industry in Crisis
http://www.emf-fem.org/Press/Press-release-archive/2007/EU-Automotive-Restructuring-Forum
EU Automotive Restructuring Forum - talks about working with trade unions
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/ashuster/nonviolence/2008/09/romanian_autoworkers_strike_against_rockbottom_wages.html
Romanian Autoworkers Strike Against Rock-Bottom Wages
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/german-autoworkers-threaten-strike/
German Autoworkers Threaten Strike
http://uk.oneworld.net/contact/company/view/18
Canadian Autoworkers Union Directory
http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=89621
UK: Car workers' Union Frustrated by Low Manufacturers Output
http://www.autonews24h.com/Auto-Industry/Peugeot-Citroen/741.html
UK Peugeot Workers Vote Against Strike to Protest Lay-Offs
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=573
Swedish Auto Workers Campaign
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2002/10/feature/it0210303f.htm
Crisis at Fiat Worsens - name countless unions
Yet another reason we need unions...nm
x
This, along with the millions to the unions
help pay for Mr. O's presidency being bought. These 2 for sure, reckon how much more?
unions redux
The question that always comes to mind, when I hear how lazy and shiftless all those UAW workers are, is--who made all those millions and millions of cars on the road, all these years? It certainly couldn't be the union workers, right? They wouldn't lift a finger to make a car, they were too busy fanning themselves with hundred dollar bills. So who made the cars?
The austrian-school piece you quote is a good example of the thing that is most wrong with our country: Turning worker against worker, while the CEOs profit. Boiled down to its essentials, the article says: ''Workers shouldn't have any power to organize to defend their rights. Their pay should be determined by the free market--a market that is not so much free, as it is controlled by the corporate interests.''
That is the ideological foundation: Enrich the rich, at the expense of the worker. The pratical method: Keep workers from organizing so that their interests don't have to be considered. And the antiunion rhetoric that we've all heard, all our lives, is the propaganda technique that makes it seem reasonable.
I don't doubt that the foreign car companies who have based operations here in the non-unionized southern US have good production numbers. They have received massive government intervention in their own countries, enabling them to create better production methods (rather than simply enriching the CEOs and stockholders, as our domestic companies seem intent on). The fact that, in their own countries, they don't have to pay for insurance for their workers, because these benefits are provided by the government, helps them stay lean. Our own method, throwing workers to the wolves, also helps socialize costs, but with a more chilling, terrifying effect.
Anyway. My point: If you are against workers organizing to defend their rights, then you are on the side of the wealthy who have organized to defend their wealth. There is not a middle ground.
Well....civil unions would have
to be something we would do on a country wide basis. I mean...what is the point if you can't leave your state because other states don't accept them. I meant this as a country wide thing. If the whole country recognized civil unions with the same benefits as marriage kind of thing. I guess I wasn't specific enough.
As it goes, same sex marriage is only accepted in the states that allow it. I mean...you have to live in those states to have the rights of marriage...right? Please correct me if I'm wrong on that one because I really don't know.
Bringing up from below about taxes/unions
At first we were told the outsourcing was to cut labor costs. Only after this campaign rhetoric took hold did the issue of taxes come up. Now I ask you, if the reason for outsourcing is taxes, what the heck? Didn't Bush CUT taxes.
It seems that American people have lost the reasoning side of their collective brains. When I quit working a few months ago I was making LESS than I made in the 80s. How is that possible? The cost of medical care has not gone down. The cost of medical insurance has not gone down. I posted some time ago about a local hospital that laid off their most experienced nurses, not a few of them, ALL of them, and hired new graduate nurses to replace them at lesser wages. What was that about? They got away with it though. Anything to increase the bottom line profit.
This is true in every industry. They like to blame labor for everything. Well, how the heck can you buy a $2+ loaf of bread and $5 gallon of milk on minimum wage, ya know? Take gasoline for example. Sure it has gone down the last days but is it back where it was when oil was what? $86 a barrel or whatever? No and it never will be.
So that car you drive.........how much do you think of the price tag is labor?
These things are what really aggravates me. People just can't seem to use reasoning power any more. I'll give you an example: After my husband lost his job in the CF fiasco, he drove for awhile for a friend who owns a trucking company. I went with him on a trip. He picked up a load of beef in Boonesville, AR, hauled it to Chicago, no problem. Then they sent him somewhere in Ohio to pick up a load of vinegar to take to Florida. Got to Ohio and I forget the reason but he couldn't pick up the vinegar. Then he was sent (empty) to Logan (?), Kentucky where he picked up 40,000 pounds of chocolate covered doughnuts which he delivered to Phoenix. In Phoenix they told him that most of that load would be routed back to Atlanta. Now what kind of sense does that make? Taxes the problem? I would say poor management is a bigger problem than taxes OR labor.
I'm sorry about your dad's experience. People used to do things like that. I recall my late father-in-law, worked for the fire department in Fort Worth and he said during the depression they did the same thing, worked less so the ones with less seniority could keep a job. They all suffered but they suffered together and somehow they all made it as did your parents.
I am just horrified at the apparent digress of intelligence in this country. It seems people believe anything the news media or anyone else tells them. Seems they have totally lost the ability to reason and God forbid that anyone should think of anyone other than themself.
All that said, feel free to go ahead and believe that companies are outsourcing jobs because of labor costs or taxes. The unionized workers, under Reagan, started taking wage concessions, that is taking a DECREASE in pay to keep jobs. How did that work? Don't believe I've heard of any of the victims of outsourcing even being offered a pay cut to keep the jobs in this country. Certainly not the Rheem plant in Fort Smith that the other day laid off the last 600 workers. They sent most of their production to Mexico a few years ago. Fort Smith they say is dying because of outsourcing. Their reason? They say, it's "labor costs." Well, then, how is it that people can't afford to pay their bills with all the excessive wages they're supposedly receiving. Obviously the next in vogue EXCUSE will be that taxes are lower in other countries. B.S.!!!!!!!
Unions don't work anymore.
Some union members are afraid to vote for better benefits or strike because management threatens to move, like the other posters stated.
Case in point: A small manufacturing shop. Union wanted higher wages or strike, and health care benefits to stay the same, both in cost and care. The union wanted a $.25 an hour raise. Owner said No. Union asked for $.15. Owner said no. Union said strike. Workers said no. They were afraid the owner would shut down and they had their jobs for 30 years.
The union steward fought for better benefits but when the workers voted against the better benefits, the company won. Two weeks later, the steward was laid off, along with a member of my family just because he was friends with the union steward. That was 3 years ago. The workers are still working for the same hourly rate this year. How's that for being fair?
I was a member of the Teamster's. When we went on strike for better wages back in the ྂs, he company threatened to move out.. We also wanted (women) equal pay for equal work because we did the same work the men did, but got paid $.25 an hour less. They moved and 100 jobs were lost. So, you see, companies still have the upper hand, not unions. They only want your money anymore. They really don't care about the workers.
No, unions DO put them in a financial hole.
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The unions are killing companies, though. That is
nm
Have a question for the labor unions....
especially the UAW....how do you like him now that he has thrown you under the "let the automakers go bankrupt" bus. Be careful what you vote for.....
I think they should go bankrupt. Unions didn't cause it -
well, i guess the word has not gotten to the unions then...
at end of article they quoted one union leader as saying his members "would not tolerate" this. It was an article dated yesterday. But, it would not surprise me that he would exempt unions, which makes absolutely NO sense, because they are the best and most costly benefits to be had. So, probably so, it will be on the backs of folks like us. My question is...what are they going to do after they break our backs? Who is going to pay for all their cr*p then?? Why, whatever am I thinking? Soon it will be only the "poor" which will include all of us, and the government and those who kiss*d the government as* who prosper...hmmm. Kinda like Venezuela...kinda like Nazi Germany...hmmm.
Yeah, I'll talk about unions s/m
Two husbands who were union workers. One IBEW, one Teamster. BOTH said there were workers who didn't carry their share of the work load...not much different than MTs who cherry pick for instance.
#1 IBEW husband said at the time or Reganomics, when Ronald Reagan, himself a card-carrying member of the actor's union, said he would break the unions, it would be the downfall of the American workers.. Regan succeeded in breaking the backs of the unions. When union workers lost the ability to bargain, they had to start taking wage concessions......and guess what? Union wages went down, so did non-union wages follow suit. When union workers got better working conditions, better wages and better benefits, so did non-union workers.
#2 Teamster husband is a radical retired Teamster. While he also complained that there were lazy workers who rode on the backs of the hard-workers, he also said that the union does not support such and more times than not the union would uphold the firing of such a person. He has a Teamster retirement that is the envy of most people and he has retiree health care benefits even though we pay about $700 a month for that. While he was working, his union dues were around $35 a month and that covered our insurance. Teamster retirees today will not enjoy those benefits.
Do some research on the history of unions. Might not hurt to watch the movie Norma Rae as well.
You already posted this question. Civil unions are
*
Good post....truth doesn't always sound good
@
Good for you! Most people would not recognize good...sm
character if it hit them over the head, just sheep who follow along without thinking for themselves, believing the political pundit spitting out garbage.
Good post - good research (sm)
History does repeat itself at times. I had forgotten about the 50s and Russia.
Very scary times we live in and so many new enemies. This is definitely not a scare tactic but a very clear warning. You can't ignore facts, they are there.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
rasberries
Good point, good post. Thanks.
Good One!!!
 especially since I have four cats and no dogs....I did have a pit bull once, but he was the sweetest thing and rather lick you to death than bite!!!
Good
Great, we have something in common. *BIG HUG*. Bye, Brunson.
Well, good, cuz I am not following you at all. SM
An analogy was made and you are making it sound like a Bible verse? Please. Give it up.
LOL! That's a good one.
Contact the administrator so that you can give her more than just your ISP to use against you. Why not give her your email, so she can report back to your employer with your name, too?
Thanks, good to see
a fair sampling of papers. There are so few independent papers anymore; and they all put out the same spin due to being owned by the The Powers That Be, it is good to hear people speaking out again but my God, what it took to have that happen.
LOL! Good one!
I can't stop laughing at the row v wade line!
As far as everything else you said, I couldn't agree more. Thank you for posting your honest feelings. It helps a lot to know that all those who are born again aren't of the radical mindset that is usually shown on these boards. 
good vs bad
That is the trouble with radical right wingers..they think the world is evil or good..black or white..you are either with us or not..axis of evil..LOL..simple thinking for complicated times, if you ask me..
Good ones...sm
Especially staying the course, 911 and ownership society.
These are good :) nm
Good ones..nm
This is another good one.
This is about the power of dissent and the duty of the TRUE PATRIOT to exercise it.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0704-21.htm
Good for him...sm
(off topic: A 17-year old deputy. That's kinda young for the job I would think.)
Booze does amplify the personality. You do and say things that you would not have if you weren't 'under the influence.' I can't overlook the fact that Mel's father says the the Holocaust did not happen, and is fiction. The same father who moved his family to Australia so that his older brothers would not have to go to Vietnam mind you. What's that saying about apples?
I've learned to separated the man from the movies. Passion of the Christ, I loved.
Pol Pot...not a good example. sm
Pol Pot would have never been allowed his free reign had we stayed the course in Vietnam. The left got their wish. We withdrawn. Millions died. But the left never talks about that.
As far as *we* killing blacks and American Indians. I never killed anyone. Africans were caught and sold by their own people to the slave traders. We can sit and assign guilt until now to kingdom come. To read posts like this further illustrates the people in this country who think of the U.S. as the great Satan.
This is very good to know.
This seems to diametrically oppose what Marylandgal is saying, too.
Good for you and good for him!
I think he is going to go a long way and I think he would make a very deliberate and thoughtful president that could just lead us out of this quagmire the country is currently in, and I think he has the better national healthcare proposition on the table. I hope he maximizes on his momentum. New Hampshire may not be so quick to endorse though.
Well seeing as none are very good...
I think that because none of them are the perfect choice, I want a good speaker to represent us. I'm not in love with Obama, some of what he does is a little unnerving. What Hillary is about just downright scares the you know what out of me (as does McCain - that relic should be in some sanitarium somewhere) - how he made it I don't know because I believe there were a lot of other more qualified candidates on the repubs side. Anyway...seeing as none of them is the "ideal" candidate I at least want someone in who is a good speaker and who can represent our country in a dignified and intelligent manner. Hillary does not. I've listened to her speeches with an open mind hoping (I mean really really hoping) that I would feel differently about her because there was a possibility she could be chosen. But every time she speaks it just brings my hopes down. Her thoughts are not together. She cannot read without constantly looking at her notes, and most of what I hear is "women, women, women. We've been done wrong to and now its payback time. We're going to make them pay for what they did to us, etc, etc (of course not in those exact words - but that is the implication of her speeches). I've not once heard her give a speech of hope and promise. What she does say is more of the same retoric. More of "I'm going to give you this or that - which is what they promised when Bill was campaigning years ago, but never filled their promises back then. That is why I do not believe any of what she says. False hopes.
So yes....candidates are not all that great, but I want a great speaker to talk to other countries and not make us look like fools which is what George Bush & Bill Clinton did when they were in. I also want our leader to talk to our allies AND enemies. Everyone needs to live together in peace and if there is a slight chance that Obama can do it I'm for it. This whole idea that Clinton and McCain will "threaten" other countries with "obliteration". Well how would they feel if our enemies said do what we want or we're going to "obliterate" you. So yes, I'm for someone who is a good speaker and good negotiator.
That is all well and good, but....
I still don't agree. I hear "most Muslims don't agree with," but you never hear the Muslims themselves saying so. Why don't they? Why don't they write articles, get published, come out publically against extremism? Now I know that there are Muslims who are not prone to violence and yes, they abhor it...but a personal feeling means nothing if those who feel that way don't unite and make themselves known. Of course Muslim countries denounced the attack...what would YOU do if you thought you might come into the crosshairs of the US military? Who knows what they were saying to their own people. I seem to remember footage of your regular Muslim folks dancing in the streets over there and saying we got what we deserved. They were not members of AL Qaeda, just everyday Muslim citizens. So...sorry....I don't think this gentleman gets it and I don't think Obama gets it either.
There will always be fundamentalists, and I believe more Muslims than not are fundamentalists; just will not say so, and just a few of them can do great damage and frankly, I want a President in the White House that I think those people will have a grudging respect for; I want them to think he/she will train down misery on them if they attack us again. Because, frankly, that is all they understand, and for all Bush's failures (and he has many in my books, including spending like there was no tomorrow), I believe that is one thing he HAS done and the way he reacted to 9-11 is exactly what has kept them from attacking us like that again. They don't want American boots on the ground in anymore Muslim countries. Because Bush gets it. He knows who and what he is fighting.
Just as an aside....what makes you think Obama is in favor of free trade? His votes in Congress and many of his statements are in direct contradiction to that...? I have read up on it, and while he has made statements that he is "for" free trade, all his actions speak otherwise.
Bottom line...I don't trust him, I don't think he understands Muslim extremism, and I know he is way further to the left and has rampant socialist tendencies that I don't agree with...and if he is elected, look for taxes to go up no matter what he says, because to do everything he wants to do is going to cost a lot of money. And when he starts with the taxing the "rich" and people start to jump on that bandwagon...they need to look at the income thresholds for those "rich" and realize that it will hurt the small businesses who employ a great many people in this country. If he does that, look for more jobs and companies to go offshore. A major contributor to offshoring is companies trying to get out from under the huge tax burden Democratic congresses have put on them.
As a side note...violence associated with the Muslim religion is not new...their rampage across Europe killing Christians on the way to trying to take over Jerusalem...that was many hundreds of years ago, leading to the crusades. Muslim extremists (although they were all pretty extreme in those days) were about world domination then and they are about it now...they are just more clever in how they seek to bring it about.
And look at Sharia law...how much more violent can you get? Stonings, cutting off limbs, honor killings...sorry...I don't think they get it at all...just my opinion. If you put in Sharia law in this country we would have a gazillion stonings a day and a good portion of the populace would be limbless...if even alive. And there are American citizens (though Muslim) who have participated in and fully condoned honor killings...sooo I don't think it is wise to assume that free markets and capitalism will change minds and hearts. Nice thought...just not a realistic one, in my view. While there ARE those Muslims who are not extreme in how they interpret the Koran...I do not think they are in the majority. Nothing about the world today makes me come anywhere close to believing that.
Both of those men are good men....
I was impressed with Duncan Hunter during the primaries. I really have no idea where McCain is going to go. Another real interesting aspect of this race. I have to say Obama surprised me choosing Biden. Especially when they have Biden saying on tape he would be proud to run with McCain. Now he is going to have to turn around and attack McCain. Slight loss of credibility there. Oh well. Friendships often get thrown under the political bus...on both sides.
good one!
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Good. nm
nm
Good one!
.
That was a good one!
Bullseye.
and we could all use a good
laugh -- breaks the tension of the past couple months.
That's a good one!
That Sarah Silverman is ignorant!
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