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Former US Diplomat Raps Bush N. Korea Policy

Posted By: PK on 2006-06-21
In Reply to:

Here is yet another expert criticizing Bush's policies.  How can ALL of these people be wrong?


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-21T064029Z_01_N21187502_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage3


Former US Diplomat Raps Bush N. Korea Policy


June 21, 2006


By Carol Giacomo, Diplomatic Correspondent


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A former U.S. diplomat who was deeply involved in North Korea policy said the Bush administration's approach toward the isolated communist state has been a failure that left Pyongyang to pursue its nuclear and missile programs.


In a rare public attack on the administration by a foreign service officer, retired head of the State Department's office of Korean affairs David Straub also questioned Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's decision-making on the issue. A spokesman for Rice was not immediately available for comment.


One fundamental failure of Bush's approach was the tendency to raise tensions and make South Korea nervous by stating that all options were the table, a phrase underscoring U.S. intentions to use force against North Korea if necessary, he said.


Of course all options are on the table. No government ever takes any option off the table but you don't have to talk about it all the time, Straub said.


Every time we said 'all options are on the table' gratuitously, we made the situation with our South Korean ally worse and made the prospect of coordination with South Korea to resolve the North Korean problem diplomatically that much more remote, he said.


Straub was head of the Korean office from 2002-2004 and was part of a team that negotiated with the North during former Secretary of State Colin Powell's tenure.


Several former administration political appointees have faulted President George W. Bush's policies after leaving office but it is rare for a foreign service officer to do so.


DIPLOMATIC FAILURE


Straub spoke in Washington at a meeting of the Korea Club, which groups former officials, scholars and journalists interested in the Korean peninsula.


His remarks came as six-country negotiations on ending North Korea's nuclear program are at a stalemate and as Pyongyang fans tensions again with preparations for a possible long-range missile test.


Straub said Washington was not primarily responsible for the failure to stop the North's pursuit of nuclear weapons and expressed skepticism Pyongyang would abandon its growing capability even if the United States made major concessions.


But he said the only viable U.S. approach is serious negotiations, the appointment of a high-level envoy and a willingness to engage in bilateral as well as multilateral talks, something the Bush administration has eschewed.


Straub said North Korea never seemed a priority for Bush and he could not understand why the National Security Council under Rice, who is often credited with energizing diplomacy at the State Department, repeatedly rejected Powell's diplomatic proposals.


Powell was desperate to try to have some real diplomatic effort going (with Pyongyang). Maybe she did something (to assist that) for four years while he was in office, but if she did no one ever told me, Straub said.


As for Bush, Straub wondered how much attention is he able to pay to it (North Korea). How much does he know?


Straub noted that opinion polls show many South Koreans consider America a bigger problem than North Korea. I can't think of a better definition of diplomatic failure, he said


He expressed confidence Powell would have pursued bilateral talks with Pyongyang in 2002-2003 during a crisis created by U.S. discovery of the North's clandestine program for enriching weapons-grade uranium.


But he said the administration did not want real give and take so the stalemate in six-country talks between the United States, the two Koreas, Japan, China and Russia was predictable, he said.


Straub also questioned why, after six-party talks reached an important but preliminary agreement on the nuclear issue last September, Rice would allow release of a statement clarifying U.S. views on issues papered over in the agreement.


The U.S. statement prompted Pyongyang to renege on the agreement.




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"A diplomat he is not..."

You wrote (rather kindly, it seems ):  "A diplomat he is not and the guy seems to have a real adversion to the basic concept of diplomacy."


Not only is Bush NOT a diplomat, but he's been aggressively "poking the bear" by placing missiles in Russia's back yard and by helping Georgia attack South Ossetia (please see link I provided above). 


I agree that Obama isn't even in office yet, and the comment was obviously directed at Bush's aggression with the hope that the USA will be able to be trusted and respected again.  I personally hope that Bush doesn't provoke yet another war before he leaves office (if he leaves office).


Obama is exactly the diplomat we need at
that after he takes the office.
video - ann wright - former US diplomat

Dont know if any of you have already seen this video, if so, I apologize for posting it, however, if you havent, check it out. 



Ann Wright - Former US Diplomat
08.23.05
QuickTime
DSL | 56K
Windows Media
DSL | 56K
RealMedia
DSL | 56K


Actually North Korea HAS WMD
Bush had no reason to send troops to Iraq.

North Korea, on the other hand, is already in possession of nuclear arms and is ready to strike a pre-emptive strike towards America.

Would you suggest we do nothing?

This has nothing to do with whatever side of the aisle you are on, it is about saving humanity from a mad man with nuclear arms.
N. Korea wants an apology from the U.N.

He's threatening nuclear missles now if he doesn't get the apology


Instead of all the governments playing patty cake with these radical leaders, we should just take them out once and for all.


While O is trying to reduce our defense abilities, these leaders are building up theirs. When is the world (including our country) going to realize you can't deal with leaders like this in a rational manner? "Speak softly but carry a big stick" is the motto we should be following.


 


Pro North Korea? (sm)

I didn't say I was pro N. Korea.  You obviously need to hone your psychic skills.  What I am saying is that yes, I am anti nukes.  I am also anti "let's jes kill 'em all" mentality that we've had to put up with for the previous 8 years. 


Another thing you might want to consider is that N. Korea is not completely without allies.  Unless we're willing to catch one of those nukes, I would think it best if we didn't start playing hot pototoe with them. 


UN hits N. Korea with sanctions...(sm)

Yeah!!!.  Now I just worry about the 2 girls they are trying over there.



updated 3:42 p.m. ET, Fri., June 12, 2009


SEOUL, South Korea - The U.N. Security Council on Friday punished North Korea for its second nuclear test, imposing tough new sanctions, expanding an arms embargo and authorizing ship searches on the high seas, with the goal of derailing the isolated nation's nuclear and missile programs.


In a sign of growing global anger at Pyongyang's pursuit of nuclear weapons in defiance of the council, the North's closest allies Russia and China joined Western powers and nations from every region in unanimously approving the sanctions resolution.


The resolution seeks to deprive North Korea of financing and material for its weapons program and bans the country's lucrative arms exports, especially missiles. It does not ban normal trade, but does call on international financial institutions not to provide the North with grants, aid or loans except for humanitarian, development and denuclearization programs. U.S. Deputy Ambassador Rosemary DiCarlo said the resolution provides "a strong and united international response" to North Korea's test in defiance of a ban imposed after its first underground atomic blast in October 2006.


"The message of this resolution is clear: North Korea's behavior is unacceptable to the international community and the international community is determined to respond," DiCarlo said. "North Korea should return without conditions to a process of peaceful dialogue."


Push for six-party talks
China's U.N. Ambassador Zhang Yesui said the nuclear test had affected regional peace and security. He strongly urged Pyongyang to promote the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula and return quickly to Beijing-hosted six-party talks aimed at dismantling North Korea's nuclear program.




He said the resolution demonstrates the international community's "firm opposition" to the atomic blast, "but also sends a positive signal" by showing the council's determination to resolve the issue "peacefully through dialogue and negotiations."



North Korea signaled strong opposition to new sanctions before the vote, but its diplomats were nowhere to be seen on Friday.



That was in stark contrast to the vote in October 2006 when the North Korean ambassador immediately rejected the first sanctions resolution, accused council members of "gangster-like" action, and walked out of the council chamber.


'Merciless offensive'
North Korea reiterated Monday in its main newspaper that the country will consider any sanctions a declaration of war and will respond with "due corresponding self-defense measures." On Tuesday, the North said it would use nuclear weapons in a "merciless offensive" if provoked.


The provision most likely to anger the North Koreans calls on countries to inspect all suspect cargo heading to or from North Korea — and to stop ships carrying suspect material if the country whose flag the vessel is flying gives approval.





The White House said it was prepared to confront ships believed to be carrying contraband materials to North Korea but will not try to forcibly board them.


If the country refuses to give approval, it must direct the vessel "to an appropriate and convenient port for the required inspection by the local authorities."









Susan Rice, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said U.S. officials would seek permission to board and inspect ships believed to be carrying contraband to North Korea. Such ships would be directed to a nearby port for inspection if they could not be boarded at sea, she told reporters at the White House.





Rice said the U.S. would not be surprised if North Korea reacted to the sanctions with "further provocation."




"There's reason to believe they may respond in an irresponsible fashion to this," she said. But she said she expects the sanctions to have significant impact on North Korea's financing of its weapons and missile systems.


Nuclear tests
The United States and many other nations, including China and Russia, have condemned Pyongyang for its underground nuclear test on May 25 and a series of ground-to-air missile test firings.


The resolution condemns "in the strongest terms" the North's May 25 nuclear test "in violation and flagrant disregard" of the 2006 sanctions resolution.


It demands a halt to any further nuclear tests or missile launches and reiterates the council's demand that the North abandon all nuclear weapons, return to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, allow U.N. nuclear inspections, and rejoin six-party talks.


The 2006 resolution imposed an arms embargo on heavy weapons, a ban on material that could be used in missiles or weapons of mass destruction and a ban on luxury goods favored by North Korea's ruling elite. It also ordered an asset freeze and travel ban on companies and individuals involved in the country's nuclear and weapons programs.


and N. Korea is laughing at the useless UN
nm
NK wants to take back South Korea

I think that's part of the problem. They have "unification" parties all over the north. The people in the north don't get any outside news except what NK wants them to have. At least that's my take on it.  I hope their missles do fizzle out. I'm sure the nitwit will definitely push it to the brink.


As he states (and did we REALLY start the Korean War?):


"This is another foul product of the U.S.-led international oppression to disarm the DPRK and to suffocate it economically for forcing the Korean people to give up their idea and system.


If the U.S. imperialists start another war, ignorant of the ignominious defeat they had sustained in the past Korean war, the army and people of Korea will determinedly answer "sanctions" with retaliation and "confrontation" with all-out confrontation, the counter-measure based on the Songun idea, wipe out the aggressors on the globe once and for all and achieve the cause of national reunification without fail."


N. KOREA THREATENS UNITED STATES
N. Korea Threatens Military Action if U.S. Imposes Blockade
Saturday, June 13, 2009


June 10: South Korean soldiers use binoculars to look at the North side from Imjingak, north of Seoul, South Korea.
June 10: South Korean soldiers use binoculars to look at the North side from Imjingak, north of Seoul, South Korea.
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea vowed on Saturday to embark on a uranium enrichment program and "weaponize" all the plutonium in its possession as it rejected the new U.N. sanctions meant to punish the communist nation for its recent nuclear test.

North Korea also said it would not abandon its nuclear programs, saying it was an inevitable decision to defend itself from what it says is a hostile U.S. policy and its nuclear threat against the North.

The North will take "resolute military action" if the United States or its allies try to impose any "blockade" on it, the ministry said in a statement carried by the North's official Korean Central News Agency.

The ministry did not elaborate if the blockade refers to an attempt to stop its ships or impose sanctions.

North Korea describes its nuclear program as a deterrent against possible U.S. attacks. Washington says it has no intention of attacking and has expressed fear that North Korea is trying to sell its nuclear technology to other nations.

The statement came hours after the U.N. Security Council approved tough new sanctions on North Korea to punish it for its latest nuclear test on May 25.

The U.N. resolution imposes new sanctions on the reclusive communist nation's weapons exports and financial dealings, and allows inspections of suspect cargo in ports and on the high seas.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526090,00.html
North Korea: This is not good news

I was surfing a bit this morning and found this news article from N. Korea. I doubt things will cool off for a long time, if ever. The article headlines state: "Lee Myung-Bak's Group Military Provocations Blasted. From there, it calls him a puppet war monger and states how Myung-Bak outbursts "over the non-existant provocation (my emphasis) by the North."


http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm


N. Korea Threatens to Hurt US if Attacked

This guy is really nuts! Just because he has 1M foot soldiers, he thinks he can do what he wants.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,528057,00.html


policy
So you think economic policies are the same as voter fraud? As a democrat, I have sat and read those that back Obama just come back with ridiculous questions because they know the facts against Obama are there but they have nothing to defend them, so they ask questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the facts at hand. It's an embarrassment when someone that is dem can't find one fact to defend the man in the stuff he is involved in. Corruption, terrorists....or do you like that?

I asked for someone to refute Obama's involvement with ACORN but since no one can, they bring up an issue that has nothing to do with the question. Now that is true ignorance. I'm so glad many democrats have opened their eyes and realize this is not what they want, which is why Obama has ACORN out there doing his dirty bidding, trying to get fradulent voter applications in there.
Russia against sanctions for Iran and North Korea. Therefore:

U.S. and Russia to Enter Civilian Nuclear Pact
Bush Reverses Long-Standing Policy, Allows Agreement That May Provide Leverage on Iran



By Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 8, 2006; A01


President Bush has decided to permit extensive U.S. civilian nuclear cooperation with Russia for the first time, administration officials said yesterday, reversing decades of bipartisan policy in a move that would be worth billions of dollars to Moscow but could provoke an uproar in Congress.


Bush resisted such a move for years, insisting that Russia first stop building a nuclear power station for Iran near the Persian Gulf. But U.S. officials have shifted their view of Russia's collaboration with Iran and concluded that President Vladimir Putin has become a more constructive partner in trying to pressure Tehran to give up any aspirations for nuclear weapons.


The president plans to announce his decision at a meeting with Putin in St. Petersburg next Saturday before the annual summit of leaders from the Group of Eight major industrialized nations, officials said. The statement to be released by the two presidents would agree to start negotiations for the formal agreement required under U.S. law before the United States can engage in civilian nuclear cooperation.


In the administration's view, both sides would benefit. A nuclear cooperation agreement would clear the way for Russia to import and store thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel from U.S.-supplied reactors around the world, a lucrative business so far blocked by Washington. It could be used as an incentive to win more Russian cooperation on Iran. And it would be critical to Bush's plan to spread civilian nuclear energy to power-hungry countries because Russia would provide a place to send the used radioactive material.


At the same time, it could draw significant opposition from across the ideological spectrum, according to analysts who follow the issue. Critics wary of Putin's authoritarian course view it as rewarding Russia even though Moscow refuses to support sanctions against Iran. Others fearful of Russia's record of handling nuclear material see it as a reckless move that endangers the environment.


You will have all the anti-Russian right against it, you will have all the anti-nuclear left against it, and you will have the Russian democracy center concerned about it too, said Matthew Bunn, a nuclear specialist at Harvard's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs.


Since Russia is already a nuclear state, such an agreement, once drafted, presumably would conform to the Atomic Energy Act and therefore would not require congressional approval. Congress could reject it only with majority votes by both houses within 90 legislative days.


Administration officials confirmed the president's decision yesterday only after it was first learned from outside nuclear experts privy to the situation. The officials insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose the agreement before the summit.


The prospect, however, has been hinted at during public speeches in recent days. We certainly will be talking about nuclear energy, Assistant Energy Secretary Karen A. Harbert told a Carnegie Endowment for International Peace event Thursday. We need alternatives to hydrocarbons.


Some specialists said Bush's decision marks a milestone in U.S.-Russian relations, despite tension over Moscow's retreat from democracy and pressure on neighbors. It signals that there's a sea change in the attitude toward Russia, that they're someone we can try to work with on Iran, said Rose Gottemoeller, a former Energy Department official in the Clinton administration who now directs the Carnegie Moscow Center. It bespeaks a certain level of confidence in the Russians by this administration that hasn't been there before.


But others said the deal seems one-sided. Just what exactly are we getting? That's the real mystery, said Henry D. Sokolski, executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center. Until now, he noted, the United States has insisted on specific actions by Russia to prevent Iran from developing bombs. We're not getting any of that. We're getting an opportunity to give them money.


Environmentalists have denounced Russia's plans to transform itself into the world's nuclear dump. The country has a history of nuclear accidents and contamination. Its transportation network is antiquated and inadequate for moving vast quantities of radioactive material, critics say. And the country, they add, has not fully secured the nuclear facilities it already has against theft or accidents.


The United States has civilian nuclear cooperation agreements with the European atomic energy agency, along with China, Japan, Taiwan and 20 other countries. Bush recently sealed an agreement with India, which does require congressional approval because of that nation's unsanctioned weapons program.


Russia has sought such an agreement with the United States since the 1990s, when it began thinking about using its vast land mass to store much of the world's spent nuclear fuel. Estimating that it could make as much as $20 billion, Russia enacted a law in 2001 permitting the import, temporary storage and reprocessing of foreign nuclear fuel, despite 90 percent opposition in public opinion polls.


But the plan went nowhere. The United States controls spent fuel from nuclear material it provides, even in foreign countries, and Bunn estimates that as much as 95 percent of the potential world market for Russia was under U.S. jurisdiction. Without a cooperation agreement, none of the material could be sent to Russia, even though allies such as South Korea and Taiwan are eager to ship spent fuel there.


Like President Bill Clinton before him, Bush refused to consider it as long as Russia was helping Iran with its nuclear program. In the summer of 2002, according to Bunn, Bush sent Putin a letter saying an agreement could be reached only if the central problem of assistance to Iran's missile, nuclear and advanced conventional weapons programs was solved.


The concern over the nuclear reactor under construction at Bushehr, however, has faded. Russia agreed to provide all fuel to the facility and take it back once used, meaning it could not be turned into material for nuclear bombs. U.S. officials who once suspected that Russian scientists were secretly behind Iran's weapons program learned that critical assistance to Tehran came from Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan.


The 2002 disclosure that Iran had secret nuclear sites separate from Bushehr shocked both the U.S. and Russian governments and seemed to harden Putin's stance toward Iran. He eventually agreed to refer the issue to the U.N. Security Council and signed on to a package of incentives and penalties recently sent to Tehran. At the same time, he has consistently opposed economic sanctions, military action or even tougher diplomatic language by the council, much to the frustration of U.S. officials.


Opening negotiations for a formal nuclear cooperation agreement could be used as a lever to move Putin further. Talks will inevitably take months, and the review in Congress will extend the process. If during that time Putin resists stronger measures against Iran, analysts said, the deal could unravel or critics on Capitol Hill could try to muster enough opposition to block it. If Putin proves cooperative on Iran, they said, it could ease the way toward final approval.


This was one of the few areas where there was big money involved that you could hold over the Russians, said George Perkovich, an arms-control specialist and vice president of the Carnegie Endowment. It's a handy stick, a handy thing to hold over the Russians.


Bush has an interest in taking the agreement all the way as well. His new Global Nuclear Energy Partnership envisions promoting civilian nuclear power around the world and eventually finding a way to reprocess spent fuel without the danger of leaving behind material that could be used for bombs. Until such technology is developed, Bush needs someplace to store the spent fuel from overseas, and Russia is the only volunteer.


The Russians could make a lot of money importing foreign spent fuel, some of our allies would desperately like to be able to send their fuel to Russia, and maybe we could use the leverage to get other things done, such as getting the Russians to be more forward-leaning on Iran, Bunn said.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/07/AR2006070701588.html?sub=new


© 2006 The Washington Post Company

North Korea: Engage, Appease, Oppose

A little bit of history on North Korea and the dilemma. Read the rest of the article from the link below.


"So it's another step backwards again with North Korea.


In defiance of a Security Council resolution (1718) passed after its first nuclear test in 2006, it has now announced a second. It has also implied that it has solved some at least of the problems it encountered in the first.


The actual technical achievement remains to be examined. But the test itself represents a continued belligerency whose destination is unknown. "


 


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8066719.stm


EVERYBODY laughs at the Useless Nations, not just North Korea. nm
nm
Why should she think about foreign policy?
She was the governor of a state and that should have been her focus. Your #1 also has zero foreign policy experience. That is why he has Joe Biden. That is why Sarah has McCain. If something happened to McCain, she would have foreign policy advisors, just like Obama has in Biden. The thing is...she is the #2. If we elect Obama, we have zero foreign policy experience from day 1. It's pretty clear to me what I would rather see. I would like to at least start out with someone with several years foreign policy experience. But that is just me.
RE: Foreign Policy. Sam says we'd be just as well off

On the issues


Sarah Palin on Foreign Policy.


            No stance


Obama on Foreign Policy



  • Meet with Cuban leaders only with agenda of US interests. (Feb 2008)

  • Cuba: Loosen restrictions now; normalization later. (Feb 2008)

  • Important to undo the damage of the last seven years. (Feb 2008)

  • Never negotiate out of fear, and never fear to negotiate. (Jan 2008)

  • Ok to postpone Pakistani elections, but not indefinitely. (Dec 2007)

  • Pakistan crisis: secure nukes; continue with elections. (Dec 2007)

  • President must abide by international human rights treaties. (Dec 2007)

  • Obama Doctrine: ideology has overridden facts and reality. (Dec 2007)

  • China is a competitor but not an enemy. (Dec 2007)

  • Willing to meet with Fidel Castro, Kim Jung IL & Hugo Chavez. (Nov 2007)

  • Wrote 2006 law stabilizing Congo with $52M. (Oct 2007)

  • No Obama Doctrine; just democracy, security, liberty. (Oct 2007)

  • Invest in our relationship with Mexico. (Sep 2007)

  • Strengthen NATO to face 21st-century threats. (Aug 2007)

  • $50B annually to strengthen weak states at risk of collapse. (Aug 2007)

  • No "strategic ambiguity" on foreign policy issues. (Aug 2007)

  • At college, protested for divestment from South Africa. (Aug 2007)

  • Increased aid to Republic of Congo. (Aug 2007)

  • Visited largest slum in Africa, to publicize its plight. (Aug 2007)

  • My critics engineered our biggest foreign policy disaster. (Aug 2007)

  • China is a competitor, but not an enemy. (Aug 2007)

  • Meet with enemy leaders; it's a disgrace that we have not. (Jul 2007)

  • No-fly zone in Darfur; but pay attention more in Africa. (Jun 2007)

  • Europe & Japan are allies, but China is a competitor. (Apr 2007)

  • Palestinian people suffer-but from not recognizing Israel. (Apr 2007)

  • FactCheck: Palestinian suffering from stalled peace effort. (Apr 2007)

  • U.S. needs to ameliorate trade relations with China. (Mar 2007)

  • U.S. funds for humanitarian aid to Darfur. (Mar 2007)

  • We cannot afford isolationism. (Mar 2007)

  • Protested South African apartheid while at college. (Feb 2007)

  • Focus on corruption to improve African development. (Oct 2006)

  • Supports Israel's self-defense; but distrusted by Israelis. (Oct 2006)

  • Visited Africa in 2006; encouraged HIV testing & research. (Oct 2006)

  • Never has US had so much power & so little influence to lead. (Jul 2004)

  • US policy should promote democracy and human rights. (Jul 2004)

  • Sponsored aid bill to avert humanitarian crisis in Congo. (Dec 2005)

  • Urge Venezuela to re-open dissident radio & TV stations. (May 2007)

  • Let Ukraine & Georgia enter NATO. (Jan 2008)

  • Condemn violence by Chinese government in Tibet. (Apr 2008)

  • Sanction Mugabe until Zimbabwe transitions to democracy. (Apr 2008)

Sarah Palin on Homeland Security



  • Strong military and sound energy. (Aug 2008)

  • Armed forces, including my son, give us security and freedom. (Jan 2008)

  • Ask all candidates "Are you doing all you can for security?". (Oct 2007)

  • Visits Kuwait; encourages Alaska big game hunting to troops. (Sep 2007)

  • Promote from within, in Alaska's National Guard. (Nov 2006)

  • Let military personnel know how much we support them. (Nov 2006)

Obama on Homeland Security



  • No torture; no renditions; no operating out of fear. (Apr 2008)

  • Unacceptable to have veterans drive 250 miles to a hospital. (Feb 2008)

  • Pursue goal of a world without nuclear weapons. (Feb 2008)

  • Al Qaida is stronger now than in 2001 as Iraq distracted us. (Jan 2008)

  • Colleges must allow military recruiters for ROTC on campus. (Jan 2008)

  • Rebuild a nuclear nonproliferation strategy. (Jan 2008)

  • FactCheck: Promised to repeal Patriot Act, then voted for it. (Jan 2008)

  • No presidential power for secret surveillance. (Dec 2007)

  • No holding US citizens as unlawful enemy combatants. (Dec 2007)

  • Congress decides what constitutes torture, not president. (Dec 2007)

  • No torture; defiance of FISA; no military commissions. (Dec 2007)

  • Restore habeas corpus to reach Muslims abroad. (Dec 2007)

  • Human rights and national security are complementary. (Nov 2007)

  • Don't allow our politics to be driven by fear of terrorism. (Nov 2007)

  • 2006: Obama-Lugar bill restricted conventional weapons. (Oct 2007)

  • Judgment is as important as experience. (Oct 2007)

  • If attacked, first help victims then prevent further attacks. (Oct 2007)

  • America cannot sanction torture; no loopholes or exceptions. (Sep 2007)

  • Repeal Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. (Aug 2007)

  • 2005: Passed bill to reduce conventional weapon stockpiles. (Aug 2007)

  • We are no safer now than we were after 9/11. (Aug 2007)

  • Close Guantanamo and restore the right of habeas corpus. (Jun 2007)

  • Homeland security must protect citizens, not intrude on them. (Mar 2007)

  • America must practice the patriotism it preaches. (Mar 2007)

  • Protecting nuclear power plants is of utmost importance. (Mar 2007)

  • Personal privacy must be protected even in terrorism age. (Mar 2007)

  • Get first responders the healthcare and equipment they need. (Mar 2007)

  • Need to be both strong and smart on national defense. (Oct 2006)

  • Grow size of military to maintain rotation schedules. (Oct 2006)

  • Battling terrorism must go beyond belligerence vs. isolation. (Oct 2006)

  • Going after AL Qaeda in Pakistan is not Bush-style invasion. (Jan 2006)

  • Rebuild the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. (Jan 2006)

  • We are currently inspecting 3% of all incoming cargo. (Oct 2004)

  • Increase funding to decommission Russian nukes. (Jul 2004)

  • Give our soldiers the best equipment and training available. (Jul 2004)

  • Balance domestic intelligence reform with civil liberty risk. (Jul 2004)

Sarah Palin on War and Peace



  • We don't know what the plan is to ever end the war. (Aug 2008)

  • Wants exit plan; also assurances to keep our troops safe. (Mar 2007)

Obama on War and Peace


            Iraq War



  • President sets Iraq mission; Generals then implement tactics. (Apr 2008)

  • President sets Iraq mission; give generals a new mission. (Apr 2008)

  • $2.7 billion each week of Iraq spending is unsustainable. (Feb 2008)

  • Humanitarian aid now for displaced Iraqis. (Feb 2008)

  • FactCheck: Overstated displaced Iraqis; actually 4.2 million. (Feb 2008)

  • The Iraq war has undermined our security. (Jan 2008)

  • Iraq is distracting us from a host of global threats. (Jan 2008)

  • End the war, and end the mindset that got us into war. (Jan 2008)

  • The Iraq war was conceptually flawed from the start. (Jan 2008)

  • Title of Iraq war authorization bill stated its intent. (Jan 2008)

  • Get our troops out by the end of 2009. (Jan 2008)

  • No permanent bases in Iraq. (Jan 2008)

  • FactCheck: No, violence in Iraq is LOWER than 2 years ago. (Jan 2008)

  • Congress decides deployment level & duration, not president. (Dec 2007)

  • Surge strategy has made a difference in Iraq but failed. (Nov 2007)

  • Leave troops for protection of Americans & counterterrorism. (Sep 2007)

  • Hopes to remove all troops from Iraq by 2013, but no pledge. (Sep 2007)

  • Tell people the truth: quickest is 1-2 brigades per month. (Sep 2007)

  • No good options in Iraq--just bad options & worse options. (Aug 2007)

  • Be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in. (Jul 2007)

  • We live in a more dangerous world because of Bush's actions. (Jun 2007)

  • Case for war was weak, but people voted their best judgment. (Jun 2007)

  • War in Iraq is "dumb" but troops still need equipment. (Apr 2007)

  • Open-ended Iraq occupation must end: no military solution. (Apr 2007)

  • Saddam is a tyrant but not a national security threat. (Mar 2007)

  • Iraq 2002: ill-conceived venture; 2007: waste of resources. (Feb 2007)

  • Saddam did not own and was not providing WMD to terrorists. (Oct 2004)

  • Iraq War has made US less safe from terrorism. (Oct 2004)

  • Invading Iraq was a bad strategic blunder. (Oct 2004)

  • Democratizing Iraq will be more difficult than Afghanistan. (Oct 2004)

  • Never fudge numbers or shade the truth about war. (Jul 2004)

  • Set a new tone to internationalize the Iraqi reconstruction. (Jul 2004)

  • Iraq war was sincere but misguided, ideologically driven. (Jul 2004)

  • Not opposed to all wars, but opposed to the war in Iraq. (Jul 2004)

  • International voice in Iraq in exchange for debt forgiveness. (Jul 2004)

Trouble Spots



  • Iran is biggest strategic beneficiary of invasion of Iraq. (May 2008)

  • Military surge in Afghanistan to eliminate the Taliban. (May 2008)

  • Take no options off the table if Iran attacks Israel. (Apr 2008)

  • Two-state solution: Israel & Palestine side-by-side in peace. (Feb 2008)

  • Al Qaida is based in northwest Pakistan; strike if needed. (Jan 2008)

  • No action against Iran without Congressional authorization. (Dec 2007)

  • Iran: Bush does not let facts get in the way of ideology. (Dec 2007)

  • Meet directly for diplomacy with the leadership in Iran. (Nov 2007)

  • Committed to Iran not having nuclear weapons. (Oct 2007)

  • Iran military resolution sends the region a wrong signal. (Oct 2007)

  • Deal with al Qaeda on Pakistan border, but not with nukes. (Aug 2007)

  • Military action in Pakistan if we have actionable intel. (Aug 2007)

  • FactCheck: Yes, Obama said invade Pakistan to get al Qaeda. (Aug 2007)

  • Focus on battle in Afghanistan and root out al Qaeda. (Jun 2007)

  • Bush cracked down on some terrorists' financial networks. (Jun 2007)

  • Iraq has distracted us from Taliban in Afghanistan. (Apr 2007)

  • Iran with nuclear weapons is a profound security threat. (Apr 2007)

  • We did the right thing in Afghanistan. (Mar 2007)

  • We are playing to Osama's plan for winning a war from a cave. (Oct 2006)

  • Al Qaida is stronger than before thanks to the Bush doctrine. (Jan 2006)

  • Terrorists are in Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran. (Oct 2004)

  • Problems with current Israeli policy. (Jul 2004)

  • Engage North Korea in 6-party talks. (Jul 2004)

  • Use moral authority to work towards Middle East peace. (Jul 2004)

Voting Record



  • Voted to fund war until 2006; now wants no blank check. (Nov 2007)

  • Late to vote against war is not late to oppose war. (Jun 2007)

  • Spending on the Cold War relics should be for the veterans. (Jun 2007)

  • Would have voted no to authorize the President to go to war. (Jul 2004)

  • Voted YES on redeploying US troops out of Iraq by March 2008. (Mar 2007)

  • Voted NO on redeploying troops out of Iraq by July 2007. (Jun 2006)

  • Voted YES on investigating contract awards in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Nov 2005)

According to tax policy institute...
McCain's plan is to lower taxes on all levels, and from this the middle class would see a 3% increase in take-home pay. This also keeps small businesses who employ a great many people in this country, healthy and here, not offshore or folding.

Obama's program would have the middle class (not defined) getting 5% raise in takehome pay by 2012. He also wants $60 billion to give more tax cuts to the lowest income tax bracket...who already pay little or no taxes. And he plans to tax businesses who make over $250,000 a year to pay for that. THAT is exactly where the small businesses in this country fall. So why on EARTH would you hit the small businesses who employ so many people, just to give more breaks to the lowest bracket? All in the world that is going to do is cause small businesses to fail or go offshore or lay people off, so you will have even MORE people sent to that lower bracket, and that will put even more pressure on a slow economy.

McCain = everybody gets a tax break and small businesses stay healthy, and we don't add anymore people to that lower tax bracket. Plus the middle class gets a 3% raise in takehome pay.

To me, that is a no brainer.
JM/SP foreign policy exactly what?
I notice you have expressed no defense of SP regarding the points I have raised in the previous post regarding her breathtaking lack of knowledge and experience in foreign policy as was so painfully obvious in her first interview with Gibson and will be even more visible when she debates Biden. So you did what you always do and resorted to attacking Obama instead. OK. Let's go there for a minute.

You failed to mention who is the Chairman of the (full) Senate Foreign Relations Committee where hearings and strategies relative to NATO-Afghanistan relations are conducted. Lo and Behold. Would you look at that? It's Joe Biden, who served as chairman of that committee Jan 2001 to Jan 2003 and assumed his current incumbent chair position in Jan 2007. Looks like O made a pretty good choice of VP running mate when it comes to foreign policy experience. So if O is Chairman of the Subcommittee on European Affairs, why shouldn't he be in California for a debate? I would argue that if the Foreign Relations Committee IS the place where policy is debated relative to NATO and its relationship to Afghanistan (last time I checked, NOT in Europe) and O has (according to you) 300 advisors, his attendance is not expected or required, then evidently he feels that he can confidently rely on his advisors to keep him up to speed on what actually IS within the realm of his duties as Chairman of the Subcommittee on European Affairs since he is running for president.

By the way, how many foreign policy advisors does SP have at her disposal? Just curious. Also, it is notable that JM does not serve on any committees and his foreign policy experience is exactly what now? Speaking of advisors, for the life of me I cannot understand why you think there is something wrong with Obama having access to the insight of more than 300 people when it comes to foreign affairs. Sounds like a pretty impressive staff to me. Some might argue that that is an asset, not a liability. The world is a mighty big place and it is ludicrous to think that a president or a senator on a committee should not be taking advice and guidance from the experts on a given region.

Here's some foreign affairs stuff Obama did do during his time in the Senate before the campaign. Notice his interest in WMDs and his involvement in the strategy planning for controlling them in defense against terrorist attacks.

1. Introduced expansions to Cooperative Threat Reduction Program to secure and dismantle weapons of mass destruction and their associated infrastructure in former Soviet Union states.
2. Sponsor of Democratic Republic of Congo Relief, Security and Democracy Promotion Act, signed by Bush, to restore basic services like clinics and schools, train a professional, integrated and accountable police force and military, and otherwise support the Congolese in protecting their human rights and rebuilding their nation.
3. As member of Foreign Relations Committee, he made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa. His 2005 trip to Russia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan focus on strategy planning for the control of world's supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons and WMDs and defense against potential terrorist attacks.
4. January 2006, met with US military in Kuwait and Iraq. Visited Jordan, Israel and Palestinian territories. Asserted preconditions that US will never recognize legitimacy of Hamas leadership until they renounce elimination of Israel.
5. August 2006, official trip to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad where he made televised appearance addressing ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya.

So that's about it for now. JM/SP foreign affairs experience is what now?

When I said "enacting policy" sm
I was referring to his urging Congress to act on certain measures, such as the economic stimulus package, etc. Perhaps my choice of words was a little off, but I think you knew what I meant.

As far as being a "Bushie", I am not, thank you very much, but I believe in fairness inasmuch as fairness can be had in the political world, and I believe that Bush has been given too much "credit" for all the woes of this country. You have to remember that the POTUS is not always the decider, despite what Bush might have called himself. It is also interesting to note that the past 2 years, Dems have been the majority in Congress, which actually plays more of a part in deciding that the POTUS. No rabbits out of that hat!

I'm not criticizing Obama....yet. I am simply stating a fact....that he has jumped to the forefront and has made himself a very vocal player in the Washington arena. He is not the POTUS yet, and he should stop acting like he is. Do I like Obama? Most assuredly not, but I wish the man all the best. I hope he does a splendid job as President and pulls us from the brink of destruction, but it is a very tall order to fill and I do agree with you in that I don't know if there is anyone who can manage this.

In the meantime, I think all you Obama worshippers need to pull the wool off your eyes and realize that he is just a man and not some kind of super hero. He will have his kryptonite, too.
So, wait, you're ANTI nukes but PRO North Korea.
Uhhhh...do you see the flaw in your logic?














I didn't think so.
Hindsight is 20/20. The same argument could be made of North Korea if they decide to attack...sm
after Bush's 2nd term has ended.

Clinton and Bush definitely were opposites on foreign policy, but I think he did try - probably didn't do as much as he could. What Bush is doing with the war in Iraq though, I think is irresponsible as well.
Obama has other things to worry about: North Korea! Israel:Palestine etc...
Why are you so interested to know WHO visits the White House in top secret meetings?

This is not what Obama meant when he said...'I will open the White House...!
North Korea threaten to fire missile towards Hawaii on 4th of July
On the 4th of July. How should the US respond?

Dirty foreign policy
Well, seems to be if we didnt have such a murderous dirty foreign policy for the last 50 years, the rest of the world might not be wanting to blow us to kingdom come.  You have to wonder why other people of the world hate us so.  It is because we have overthrown third world governments and placed puppets in, undermined elections in other countries, murdered duly legally elected leaders in other countries.  Heck, we were bombing Iraq nonstop through the 1990s and stepped it up right before this illegal criminal war.  The great thing is lots of those soldiers who took part in the bombing are now speaking out.  It has been my experience, from what I have seen in life, you can only bully for so long, then others will definitely strike back.  We are now being struck back. 
Not when it is publishing policy statements
the joke's on you. Hundred of others where that came from.
Firstly, he CANNOT enact policy, and he
is trying to get the economy stabilized ASAP.  Bush has let go of the prez's office, he just wants to take his marbles and go home.  He has not been acting prez since before the economic crisis;  i.e. he came out for about all of a minute and a half to "explain" the economic crash in Sept.  So he is not acting as prez, nor does he want to.  Therefore, Obama is trying to get the economic issues in place so he can DO SOMETHING about it!!  Why is that so hard for you to understand?  "Bush given too much credit for woes of the country"  Bush is given much of the credit because HIS policies made this mess.  When these policies were enacted, Reps were in power.  Bush is responsible for every little thing that happened during his tenure, as I am sure Obama will be responsible for everything he does PLUS what Bush has caused because he is the one who has to unravel the mass of strings all knotted up in a big ball, caused by Bush, and it will be a tough road to hoe for Americans, thanks to Bush.  "He is not POTUS yet, and he should stop acting like he is."  Well, that's funny that you keep bringing that up.  He was elected POTUS, Shrub doesn't want the job, so somebody has to answer the questions, like "how's he going to fix this mess?" the press keeps putting to him.  As an Obama worshipper which gets my ire because I only worship Jesus Christ, thank you very much, but if you must call me an Obama worshipper and tell me to pull the wool off my eyes, I will tell you that my eyes have been wide open for years, way back, darlin', probably as long or longer than you have been on this earth.  I know my history for one, and you better get to know your history.  My eyes are wide open, open yours.   This country is no longer "home of the free," no longer the democracy I grew up in or even the democracy we had just a few 8 years ago, and you're telling me to pull the wool off my eyes.  Incredible. 
He has more experience than Obama in foreign policy and that cannot...
be disputed. He did add that with Joe Biden; however, I still say it will look odd to foreign leaders if Biden goes to all his meetings with him. McCain can instill any number of advisors and/or his VP pick to help where he lacks in knowledge of the economy. Frankly, I would rather have the economy knowledge in the second chair than the foreign policy knowledge. Because if we get pulled into a confrontation with someone who we know for sure unequivocally DOES have nukes...well, you get my drift.

McCain does not plan to stay at war for 100 years. That was taken completely out of context and not what he said at all. What he said was that there could be an American presence there for 100 years in the form of bases. There are American bases all over the world. We still have bases in Germany and that war has been over for what...60 years or more? If the world lasts 100 years past WWII, those bases will still be there. THAT is what McCain was talking about. Not staying at war for 100 years. We have bases in South Korea, and that war has been over for 50+ years.

I could start pulling out all the Obama quotes but his followers don't care. I have never seen such a group myopic view about one individual. It seems like if he got up on a podium and said I really don't plan to do anything I say I will do, I am just like all the politicians before me, they would chant back "we don't care, we don't care, we don't care." Such is blind devotion. This goes way past a politician and party members.

How do you know McCain has no plans to help Americans through hard times? I can tell you one thing that should not be done is impose harsher taxes on the small family businesses in this country who employ a lot of people. All that does is either cause those companies to go offshore or fold, and then you have even more unemployed and add to the government ticket. But oh...what am I thinking. That is what Democrats want. The more beholden people are to the government, the better Democrats like it. When I say Democrats, I mean the Democratic party hierarchy. I do NOT lump all Democrats together and demonize the whole group as other posters here tend to do with Republicans. Even lump Independents in with the Republicans because they are "not Democrats." That is a decidedly unDEMOcratic attitude, unAmerican attitude. One would surmise the socialism thing is already working...well of course it is. How many times in the speech did we hear tax the rich and the disappearing middle class? Class socialism...redistribute that wealth.


If you want to vote personality over policy and substance
nm
That's ridiculous. This is a foreign policy debate...
mccain still leads all the polls on foreign policy. He has no reason to try to duck this, and that should not even be an issue...they should both be back in Washington doing their jobs as leaders of their parties, not to mention as senators, which they both still are and drawing checks for.

I am glad one of them is doing it, and believe it or not, if Obama had said it first he would be getting the kudos from me too. If he even agreed to it I would give him thumbs up. But he chose not to.
Cheney 'cabal' hijacked foreign policy
Cheney 'cabal' hijacked foreign policy
By Edward Alden in Washington
Published: October 20 2005 00:00 | Last updated: October 20 2005 00:19

Vice-President Dick Cheney and a handful of others had hijacked the government's foreign policy apparatus, deciding in secret to carry out policies that had left the US weaker and more isolated in the world, the top aide to former Secretary of State Colin Powell claimed on Wednesday.


In a scathing attack on the record of President George W. Bush, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Mr Powell until last January, said: “What I saw was a cabal between the vice-president of the United States, Richard Cheney, and the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, on critical issues that made decisions that the bureaucracy did not know were being made.

“Now it is paying the consequences of making those decisions in secret, but far more telling to me is America is paying the consequences.”


Transcript: Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson
Click here http://news.ft.com/cms/s/c925a686-4...000e2511c8.html

Mr Wilkerson said such secret decision-making was responsible for mistakes such as the long refusal to engage with North Korea or to back European efforts on Iran.

It also resulted in bitter battles in the administration among those excluded from the decisions.

“If you're not prepared to stop the feuding elements in the bureaucracy as they carry out your decisions, you are courting disaster. And I would say that we have courted disaster in Iraq, in North Korea, in Iran.”

The comments, made at the New America Foundation, a Washington think-tank, were the harshest attack on the administration by a former senior official since criticisms by Richard Clarke, former White House terrorism czar, and Paul O'Neill, former Treasury secretary, early last year.

Mr Wilkerson said his decision to go public had led to a personal falling out with Mr Powell, whom he served for 16 years at the Pentagon and the State Department.

“He's not happy with my speaking out because, and I admire this in him, he is the world's most loyal soldier.

Among his other charges:

■ The detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere was “a concrete example” of the decision-making problem, with the president and other top officials in effect giving the green light to soldiers to abuse detainees. “You don't have this kind of pervasive attitude out there unless you've condoned it.”

■ Condoleezza Rice, the former national security adviser and now secretary of state, was “part of the problem”. Instead of ensuring that Mr Bush received the best possible advice, “she would side with the president to build her intimacy with the president”.

■ The military, particularly the army and marine corps, is overstretched and demoralised. Officers, Mr Wilkerson claimed, “start voting with their feet, as they did in Vietnam. . . and all of a sudden your military begins to unravel”.

Mr Wilkerson said former president George H.W. Bush “one of the finest presidents we have ever had” understood how to make foreign policy work. In contrast, he said, his son was “not versed in international relations and not too much interested in them either”.

“There's a vast difference between the way George H.W. Bush dealt with major challenges, some of the greatest challenges at the end of the 20th century, and effected positive results in my view, and the way we conduct diplomacy today.”

www.newamerica.net

How much did Barack Obama think about foreign policy before he decided to run...?
I would say...none. There is certainly no proof that he DID, that is why he chose Biden. So, if HE has to make a crucial decision that does not involve voting present or yelling at Michelle for spending $10,000 to send their kids to camp, or which Britney Spears designer to use for his next big speech...what's he gonna do? All I can say is, if he is elected, he better put Biden on speed dial or handcuff him to himself. You act as if your guy is ready!! And no one has to keel over for HIM to be in charge...he is in charge on day 1. Yeah, THAT IS scary!!

I don't know in what alternate universe you think Karl Rove is advising him. Karl Rove and John McCain detest each other. Have you not paid ANY attention these last few years??
Sarah Palin's foreign policy experience...
http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/08/31/foreign-policy-experience-what-americans-dont-know-about-sarah-palin/
Biden's giving a speech on foreign policy right now..
sure doesn't sound like he is stepping down any time soon, but don't want to burst your bubble.
Biden has plenty of foreign policy experience.
n/m
Because they were roasting the economy, foreign and domestic policy
I am a firm Obama suppoter but I concede on this point. McCain out-roasted Obama. He was clever, not over the top, comfortable with himself and amazingly gracious in his concluding remarks...in stark contrast to his demeanor when debating the more difficult issues of this election.
For full impact: McC's nuclear safety policy:
That's blah x4. Got it?
He should shut up and not push policy or influence until he gets into office.
He has truly undermined the current sitting president and has been disrespectful to that very office. That much is true.

I wasn't talking about two ways about anything. You must be talking about someone else.
One's child being in the military doesn't mean foreign policy experience...
the site I posted lists several things that do constitute foreign policy experience...more than Barack has. That is not a slam, it is just the truth. And she is the #2 person, not the #1 person. I don't know if she said she doesn't know anything about Iraq or not. She is a governor, in state politics, and that should have been her focus. She was running a state government. Obama has never run any kind of government,so she has more executive experience than he has...well, in fact, more than any candidate running, including her running mate. John McCain has more foreign policy experience than Obama. Obama's #2 has more foreign policy experience than he does. That is why he is the #2 guy. As far as experience goes...Sarah Palin has more than Barack Obama. That is fact on paper. Not trying to downgrade Obama. Contrary to popular opinion, I think he is a likable guy. I think he is a good orator. I think he has a beautiful family he loves and who love him. I don't have anything against Joe Biden, other than he can be condescending and hateful sometimes...there are sound bites all over the internet. I just don't think he is right to lead either. I just think Obama is wrong for the Presidency and so would Joe Biden be. Apparently holding that opinion put me on the tracks in front of the hate train with a target painted on my back. But that is okay...I can deal with that. My country is too important to me to throw my values under the bus for the "party." I am with PUMA...party unity my tailfeathers.

Yep, pretty dumb to claim you have foreign policy experience from 3 weeks in Pakistan!!!...

Obama started off saying he was confident in his FOREIGN POLICY experience ("Foreign policy is the area where I am probably most confident that I know more and understand the world better than Senator Clinton or Senator McCain"). He then proceeded to talk about his visit to Pakistan.


SO WHAT? I visited and lived in several foreign countries, too. Does that mean I understand foreign policy better than someone who may have spent less time but has had actual interaction and policy discussions with those countries' leaders? And with the leaders of 80 countries?


If 3 weeks in Pakistan is the extent of Obama's foreign policy credentials, then I am way more qualified on the "foreign policy" front.


My point is that Obama's claim is ridiculous. Better that he stick to his "better judgement" mantra, since the "3 weeks abroad = foreign policy experience" is just pathetically weak.


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/obamas-college.html


McCain and his foreign policy would have pushed America into total isolation from the rest of the w
and the world would have disrespected us even more.
There are different ways to SHOW STRENGTH, it must not always be BOMBS !
Bush aides challenge Biden's boasts of Bush slapdowns.
Aides to former President George W. Bush are challenging the veracity of Vice President Joe Biden's claim this week of having privately castigated Bush, who does not remember the incident or an earlier episode in which Biden claims to have similarly rebuked Bush.

Biden spokesman Jay Carney declined to specify the dates of his boss's purported Oval Office scoldings of Bush. Nor would he provide witnesses or notes to corroborate the episodes.

"The vice president stands by his remarks," Carney told FOX News without elaboration.
Those remarks include a shot that Biden took at Bush on Tuesday.

"I remember President Bush saying to me one time in the Oval Office," Biden told CNN, "'Well, Joe,' he said, 'I'm a leader.' And I said: 'Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.'"

That exchange never took place, according to numerous Bush aides who also dispute a similar assertion by Biden in 2004, when the former senator from Delaware told scores of Democratic colleagues that he had challenged Bush's moral certitude about the Iraq war during a private meeting in the Oval Office. Two years later, Biden repeated his story about dressing down the president.

"When I speak to the president - and I have had plenty of opportunity to be with the president, at least prior to the last election, a lot of hours alone with him. I mean, meaning me and his staff," Biden said on HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher" in April 2006. "And the president will say things to me, and I'll literally turn to the president, say: 'Mr. President, how can you say that, knowing you don't know the facts?' And he'll look at me and he'll say - my word - he'll look at me and he'll say: 'My instincts.' He said: 'I have good instincts.' I said: 'Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough.'"

Bush aides now dispute the veracity of both assertions by Biden.

"I never recall Biden saying any of that," former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said after reviewing detailed notes of Bush's White House meetings with Biden, which include numerous direct quotes from Biden. "I find it odd that he said he met with him alone all the time. I don't think that's true."

Fleischer said that whenever Bush met with Sen. Biden, the meeting also included a congressional counterpart so as to not "antagonize" the House.

Karl Rove, former White House political adviser, also was skeptical of Biden's claim to have spent "a lot of hours alone" with Bush.

"I remember checking on such a Biden exaggeration while at the White House and no one witnessed the meeting and his comments in remotely the same way," Rove said.

Candida P. Wolff, Bush's White House liaison to Capitol Hill, said the only meetings she remembered between Bush and Biden also included other lawmakers. She said such meetings were held in the Cabinet Room or the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, not the Oval Office, and certainly did not last for "hours."

"The president would never sit through two hours of Joe Biden," Wolff said. "I don't ever remember Biden being in the Oval. He was such a blowhard on all that stuff - there wasn't a reason to bring him in."

Andy Card, former White House chief of staff, reviewed the two Biden claims and said: "This does not ring true to me. I doubt that it happened."

A spokesman for Bush declined comment, although a person close to the former president said Bush does not remember either episode.

This is not the first time the veracity of Biden's assertions has been challenged. In 1988, he dropped out of the presidential race after being accused of plagiarizing British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock. The Washington Post also cited "the senator's boastful exaggerations of his academic record."

Last year, liberal Slate magazine recalled that "Biden's misdeeds encompassed numerous self-aggrandizing thefts, misstatements, and exaggerations that seemed to point to a serious character defect."

Also last year, Biden came under fire for telling a questionable story about being "shot at" in Iraq.

"Let's start telling the truth," Biden said during a presidential primary debate sponsored by YouTube in July. "Number one, you take all the troops out -- you better have helicopters ready to take those 3,000 civilians inside the Green Zone, where I have been seven times and shot at. You better make sure you have protection for them, or let them die."

But when questioned about the episode afterward by the Hill newspaper, Biden backpedaled from his claim of being "shot at" and instead allowed: "I was near where a shot landed."

Biden went on to say that some sort of projectile "landed" outside a building in the Green Zone where he and another senator had spent the night during a visit in December 2005. The lawmakers were shaving in the morning when they felt the building shake, Biden said.

"No one got up and ran from the room-it wasn't that kind of thing," he told the Hill. "It's not like I had someone holding a gun to my head."

Seven weeks after claiming to have been "shot at" in Iraq, Biden again raised eyebrows with another story about his exploits in war zones -- this time on "the superhighway of terror between Pakistan and Afghanistan, where my helicopter was forced down."

"If you want to know where AL Qaeda lives, you want to know where bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden bragged to the National Guard Association. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

But it turns out that inclement weather, not terrorists, prompted the chopper to land in an open field during Biden's visit to Afghanistan in February 2008. Fighter jets kept watch overhead while a convoy of security vehicles was dispatched to retrieve Biden and fellow Sens. Chuck Hagel and John Kerry.

"We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to," joked Kerry, a Democrat, to the AP. "Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."
Bush aides challenge Biden's boasts of Bush slapdowns.
Aides to former President George W. Bush are challenging the veracity of Vice President Joe Biden's claim this week of having privately castigated Bush, who does not remember the incident or an earlier episode in which Biden claims to have similarly rebuked Bush.

Biden spokesman Jay Carney declined to specify the dates of his boss's purported Oval Office scoldings of Bush. Nor would he provide witnesses or notes to corroborate the episodes.

"The vice president stands by his remarks," Carney told FOX News without elaboration.
Those remarks include a shot that Biden took at Bush on Tuesday.

"I remember President Bush saying to me one time in the Oval Office," Biden told CNN, "'Well, Joe,' he said, 'I'm a leader.' And I said: 'Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.'"

That exchange never took place, according to numerous Bush aides who also dispute a similar assertion by Biden in 2004, when the former senator from Delaware told scores of Democratic colleagues that he had challenged Bush's moral certitude about the Iraq war during a private meeting in the Oval Office. Two years later, Biden repeated his story about dressing down the president.

"When I speak to the president - and I have had plenty of opportunity to be with the president, at least prior to the last election, a lot of hours alone with him. I mean, meaning me and his staff," Biden said on HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher" in April 2006. "And the president will say things to me, and I'll literally turn to the president, say: 'Mr. President, how can you say that, knowing you don't know the facts?' And he'll look at me and he'll say - my word - he'll look at me and he'll say: 'My instincts.' He said: 'I have good instincts.' I said: 'Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough.'"

Bush aides now dispute the veracity of both assertions by Biden.

"I never recall Biden saying any of that," former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said after reviewing detailed notes of Bush's White House meetings with Biden, which include numerous direct quotes from Biden. "I find it odd that he said he met with him alone all the time. I don't think that's true."

Fleischer said that whenever Bush met with Sen. Biden, the meeting also included a congressional counterpart so as to not "antagonize" the House.

Karl Rove, former White House political adviser, also was skeptical of Biden's claim to have spent "a lot of hours alone" with Bush.

"I remember checking on such a Biden exaggeration while at the White House and no one witnessed the meeting and his comments in remotely the same way," Rove said.

Candida P. Wolff, Bush's White House liaison to Capitol Hill, said the only meetings she remembered between Bush and Biden also included other lawmakers. She said such meetings were held in the Cabinet Room or the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, not the Oval Office, and certainly did not last for "hours."

"The president would never sit through two hours of Joe Biden," Wolff said. "I don't ever remember Biden being in the Oval. He was such a blowhard on all that stuff - there wasn't a reason to bring him in."

Andy Card, former White House chief of staff, reviewed the two Biden claims and said: "This does not ring true to me. I doubt that it happened."

A spokesman for Bush declined comment, although a person close to the former president said Bush does not remember either episode.

This is not the first time the veracity of Biden's assertions has been challenged. In 1988, he dropped out of the presidential race after being accused of plagiarizing British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock. The Washington Post also cited "the senator's boastful exaggerations of his academic record."

Last year, liberal Slate magazine recalled that "Biden's misdeeds encompassed numerous self-aggrandizing thefts, misstatements, and exaggerations that seemed to point to a serious character defect."

Also last year, Biden came under fire for telling a questionable story about being "shot at" in Iraq.

"Let's start telling the truth," Biden said during a presidential primary debate sponsored by YouTube in July. "Number one, you take all the troops out -- you better have helicopters ready to take those 3,000 civilians inside the Green Zone, where I have been seven times and shot at. You better make sure you have protection for them, or let them die."

But when questioned about the episode afterward by the Hill newspaper, Biden backpedaled from his claim of being "shot at" and instead allowed: "I was near where a shot landed."

Biden went on to say that some sort of projectile "landed" outside a building in the Green Zone where he and another senator had spent the night during a visit in December 2005. The lawmakers were shaving in the morning when they felt the building shake, Biden said.

"No one got up and ran from the room-it wasn't that kind of thing," he told the Hill. "It's not like I had someone holding a gun to my head."

Seven weeks after claiming to have been "shot at" in Iraq, Biden again raised eyebrows with another story about his exploits in war zones -- this time on "the superhighway of terror between Pakistan and Afghanistan, where my helicopter was forced down."

"If you want to know where AL Qaeda lives, you want to know where bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden bragged to the National Guard Association. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

But it turns out that inclement weather, not terrorists, prompted the chopper to land in an open field during Biden's visit to Afghanistan in February 2008. Fighter jets kept watch overhead while a convoy of security vehicles was dispatched to retrieve Biden and fellow Sens. Chuck Hagel and John Kerry.

"We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to," joked Kerry, a Democrat, to the AP. "Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."
Bush aides challenge Biden's boasts of Bush slapdowns.
Aides to former President George W. Bush are challenging the veracity of Vice President Joe Biden's claim this week of having privately castigated Bush, who does not remember the incident or an earlier episode in which Biden claims to have similarly rebuked Bush.

Biden spokesman Jay Carney declined to specify the dates of his boss's purported Oval Office scoldings of Bush. Nor would he provide witnesses or notes to corroborate the episodes.

"The vice president stands by his remarks," Carney told FOX News without elaboration.
Those remarks include a shot that Biden took at Bush on Tuesday.

"I remember President Bush saying to me one time in the Oval Office," Biden told CNN, "'Well, Joe,' he said, 'I'm a leader.' And I said: 'Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.'"

That exchange never took place, according to numerous Bush aides who also dispute a similar assertion by Biden in 2004, when the former senator from Delaware told scores of Democratic colleagues that he had challenged Bush's moral certitude about the Iraq war during a private meeting in the Oval Office. Two years later, Biden repeated his story about dressing down the president.

"When I speak to the president - and I have had plenty of opportunity to be with the president, at least prior to the last election, a lot of hours alone with him. I mean, meaning me and his staff," Biden said on HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher" in April 2006. "And the president will say things to me, and I'll literally turn to the president, say: 'Mr. President, how can you say that, knowing you don't know the facts?' And he'll look at me and he'll say - my word - he'll look at me and he'll say: 'My instincts.' He said: 'I have good instincts.' I said: 'Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough.'"

Bush aides now dispute the veracity of both assertions by Biden.

"I never recall Biden saying any of that," former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said after reviewing detailed notes of Bush's White House meetings with Biden, which include numerous direct quotes from Biden. "I find it odd that he said he met with him alone all the time. I don't think that's true."

Fleischer said that whenever Bush met with Sen. Biden, the meeting also included a congressional counterpart so as to not "antagonize" the House.

Karl Rove, former White House political adviser, also was skeptical of Biden's claim to have spent "a lot of hours alone" with Bush.

"I remember checking on such a Biden exaggeration while at the White House and no one witnessed the meeting and his comments in remotely the same way," Rove said.

Candida P. Wolff, Bush's White House liaison to Capitol Hill, said the only meetings she remembered between Bush and Biden also included other lawmakers. She said such meetings were held in the Cabinet Room or the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, not the Oval Office, and certainly did not last for "hours."

"The president would never sit through two hours of Joe Biden," Wolff said. "I don't ever remember Biden being in the Oval. He was such a blowhard on all that stuff - there wasn't a reason to bring him in."

Andy Card, former White House chief of staff, reviewed the two Biden claims and said: "This does not ring true to me. I doubt that it happened."

A spokesman for Bush declined comment, although a person close to the former president said Bush does not remember either episode.

This is not the first time the veracity of Biden's assertions has been challenged. In 1988, he dropped out of the presidential race after being accused of plagiarizing British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock. The Washington Post also cited "the senator's boastful exaggerations of his academic record."

Last year, liberal Slate magazine recalled that "Biden's misdeeds encompassed numerous self-aggrandizing thefts, misstatements, and exaggerations that seemed to point to a serious character defect."

Also last year, Biden came under fire for telling a questionable story about being "shot at" in Iraq.

"Let's start telling the truth," Biden said during a presidential primary debate sponsored by YouTube in July. "Number one, you take all the troops out -- you better have helicopters ready to take those 3,000 civilians inside the Green Zone, where I have been seven times and shot at. You better make sure you have protection for them, or let them die."

But when questioned about the episode afterward by the Hill newspaper, Biden backpedaled from his claim of being "shot at" and instead allowed: "I was near where a shot landed."

Biden went on to say that some sort of projectile "landed" outside a building in the Green Zone where he and another senator had spent the night during a visit in December 2005. The lawmakers were shaving in the morning when they felt the building shake, Biden said.

"No one got up and ran from the room-it wasn't that kind of thing," he told the Hill. "It's not like I had someone holding a gun to my head."

Seven weeks after claiming to have been "shot at" in Iraq, Biden again raised eyebrows with another story about his exploits in war zones -- this time on "the superhighway of terror between Pakistan and Afghanistan, where my helicopter was forced down."

"If you want to know where AL Qaeda lives, you want to know where bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden bragged to the National Guard Association. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

But it turns out that inclement weather, not terrorists, prompted the chopper to land in an open field during Biden's visit to Afghanistan in February 2008. Fighter jets kept watch overhead while a convoy of security vehicles was dispatched to retrieve Biden and fellow Sens. Chuck Hagel and John Kerry.

"We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to," joked Kerry, a Democrat, to the AP. "Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."
Bush aides challenge Biden's boasts of Bush slapdowns.
Aides to former President George W. Bush are challenging the veracity of Vice President Joe Biden's claim this week of having privately castigated Bush, who does not remember the incident or an earlier episode in which Biden claims to have similarly rebuked Bush.

Biden spokesman Jay Carney declined to specify the dates of his boss's purported Oval Office scoldings of Bush. Nor would he provide witnesses or notes to corroborate the episodes.

"The vice president stands by his remarks," Carney told FOX News without elaboration.
Those remarks include a shot that Biden took at Bush on Tuesday.

"I remember President Bush saying to me one time in the Oval Office," Biden told CNN, "'Well, Joe,' he said, 'I'm a leader.' And I said: 'Mr. President, turn and around look behind you. No one is following.'"

That exchange never took place, according to numerous Bush aides who also dispute a similar assertion by Biden in 2004, when the former senator from Delaware told scores of Democratic colleagues that he had challenged Bush's moral certitude about the Iraq war during a private meeting in the Oval Office. Two years later, Biden repeated his story about dressing down the president.

"When I speak to the president - and I have had plenty of opportunity to be with the president, at least prior to the last election, a lot of hours alone with him. I mean, meaning me and his staff," Biden said on HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher" in April 2006. "And the president will say things to me, and I'll literally turn to the president, say: 'Mr. President, how can you say that, knowing you don't know the facts?' And he'll look at me and he'll say - my word - he'll look at me and he'll say: 'My instincts.' He said: 'I have good instincts.' I said: 'Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough.'"

Bush aides now dispute the veracity of both assertions by Biden.

"I never recall Biden saying any of that," former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said after reviewing detailed notes of Bush's White House meetings with Biden, which include numerous direct quotes from Biden. "I find it odd that he said he met with him alone all the time. I don't think that's true."

Fleischer said that whenever Bush met with Sen. Biden, the meeting also included a congressional counterpart so as to not "antagonize" the House.

Karl Rove, former White House political adviser, also was skeptical of Biden's claim to have spent "a lot of hours alone" with Bush.

"I remember checking on such a Biden exaggeration while at the White House and no one witnessed the meeting and his comments in remotely the same way," Rove said.

Candida P. Wolff, Bush's White House liaison to Capitol Hill, said the only meetings she remembered between Bush and Biden also included other lawmakers. She said such meetings were held in the Cabinet Room or the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, not the Oval Office, and certainly did not last for "hours."

"The president would never sit through two hours of Joe Biden," Wolff said. "I don't ever remember Biden being in the Oval. He was such a blowhard on all that stuff - there wasn't a reason to bring him in."

Andy Card, former White House chief of staff, reviewed the two Biden claims and said: "This does not ring true to me. I doubt that it happened."

A spokesman for Bush declined comment, although a person close to the former president said Bush does not remember either episode.

This is not the first time the veracity of Biden's assertions has been challenged. In 1988, he dropped out of the presidential race after being accused of plagiarizing British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock. The Washington Post also cited "the senator's boastful exaggerations of his academic record."

Last year, liberal Slate magazine recalled that "Biden's misdeeds encompassed numerous self-aggrandizing thefts, misstatements, and exaggerations that seemed to point to a serious character defect."

Also last year, Biden came under fire for telling a questionable story about being "shot at" in Iraq.

"Let's start telling the truth," Biden said during a presidential primary debate sponsored by YouTube in July. "Number one, you take all the troops out -- you better have helicopters ready to take those 3,000 civilians inside the Green Zone, where I have been seven times and shot at. You better make sure you have protection for them, or let them die."

But when questioned about the episode afterward by the Hill newspaper, Biden backpedaled from his claim of being "shot at" and instead allowed: "I was near where a shot landed."

Biden went on to say that some sort of projectile "landed" outside a building in the Green Zone where he and another senator had spent the night during a visit in December 2005. The lawmakers were shaving in the morning when they felt the building shake, Biden said.

"No one got up and ran from the room-it wasn't that kind of thing," he told the Hill. "It's not like I had someone holding a gun to my head."

Seven weeks after claiming to have been "shot at" in Iraq, Biden again raised eyebrows with another story about his exploits in war zones -- this time on "the superhighway of terror between Pakistan and Afghanistan, where my helicopter was forced down."

"If you want to know where AL Qaeda lives, you want to know where bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me," Biden bragged to the National Guard Association. "Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down, with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are."

But it turns out that inclement weather, not terrorists, prompted the chopper to land in an open field during Biden's visit to Afghanistan in February 2008. Fighter jets kept watch overhead while a convoy of security vehicles was dispatched to retrieve Biden and fellow Sens. Chuck Hagel and John Kerry.

"We were going to send Biden out to fight the Taliban with snowballs, but we didn't have to," joked Kerry, a Democrat, to the AP. "Other than getting a little cold, it was fine."
Yeah right. Served under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II
x
Stop bringing up Bush - this post was not about Bush
I even said we have had some good presidents and some bad ones, but this post was not about Bush. It was about Obama. Yes Bush was one of the worst presidents I'm not arguing with you on that one, but everytime anyone brings up something about our current president they are shot back with Bush this or Bush that and on things that have nothing to do with what the current topic is about. Again, this was not about Bush. It was about Obama.
Oh, more "blame Bush" - except Bush didn't send these out, now did he?
Here's a news flash for you since you apparently haven't heard: BUSH IS NOT IN OFFICE and just today Gallup did a poll showing that THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS THINK OBAMA SHOULD START TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENS ON HIS WATCH.

G E T A C L U E.
Bush is gone, YEA!!! and yeah, it could darn well be Bush! LOL.
Chimp boy!! But, the cartoon is NOT about Bush, now is it?  Give me a break. 
George Bush HIMSELF makes it so easy to make fun of George Bush!!!! oh where would I start, so litt
nm