Excuse me, it is not about separation of church and state...

• If you go to church, has your pastor done this? - sm
  • churches & political endorsements - Les R.
  • I have a priest, and he told us we would burn in - see msg
    • and he gets to make those decisions? nm - anon
  • My pastor gave info - Yes
    • not all pastors - ExMQMT
  • No, NEVER and nm - I've gone to church all my life
  • Have not experienced it firsthand..... - sam
    • It's called separation of church and state - nm - Amanda
      • Excuse me, it is not about separation of church and state... - sam

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There are problems and controversy in every church.  I do not agree with things that go on in my church nor everything that my pastor says or does.  I have found that some churches problems are greater than the ones in your own church, so some times you have to be still. 

Here's one for ya....Me along with plenty of other Americans don't agree with what our current President Bush has done in terms of running our country, starting a war, making history by putting every state in this country in a negative deficit, and I could continue to go on, but the point is even in our disagreement with him, we have not jumped up and ran to another country and we wonder why; running is not the answer.  First off it is not our place to condemn one, but since someone is being condemned for what was said, condemn the Rev. Wright, not Obama.

Two Border State Governors Declare Illegal Immigration State of Emergency

SIGN THE PETITION!
CLICK HERE!

THANK YOU!

Many people were confined against their will just because someone wanted them "out of the way." These were normal people with no mental illness - that is why it is so difficult - don't blame the liberals. Blame your state.

CONFINING THE MENTALLY ILL


In the legal space between what a society should and should not do, taking action to restrict the liberty of people who are mentally ill sits in the grayest of gray areas.

Our notions about civil and constitutional rights flow from an assumption of "normalcy." Step beyond the boundaries and arrest and prison may legally follow. Short of that, government's ability to hold people against their will is severely and properly limited. Unusual behavior on the part of someone who is mentally ill is not illegal behavior. Freedom can't be snatched away on a whim, or on the thought that a person is hard to look at, hard to hear, hard to smell.

It was only a few decades ago that the promise of new medications and a change in attitude opened the doors of the mental hospitals and sent many patients into society. There, they would somehow "normalize" and join everyone else, supported by networks of out-patient facilities, job training, special living arrangements and regular, appropriate medication. But the transition has been imperfect, long and difficult.

In some parts of urban America there is little professional support for those with mental health problems. A new generation of drug and alcohol-fueled mental illness has come on the scene. People frequently end up on the street, un-medicated and exhibiting a full range of behaviors that are discomforting at the very least and threatening at their worst.

Written last Thanksgiving:  "Some would argue that two different nations actually celebrated: upright, moral, traditional red America and the dissolute, liberal blue states clustered on the periphery of the heartland. The truth, however, is much more complicated and interesting than that.

Take two iconic states: Texas and Massachusetts. In some ways, they were the two states competing in the last election. In the world's imagination, you couldn't have two starker opposites. One is the homeplace of Harvard, gay marriage, high taxes, and social permissiveness. The other is Bush country, solidly Republican, traditional, and gun-toting. Massachusetts voted for Kerry over Bush 62 to 37 percent; Texas voted for Bush over Kerry 61 to 38 percent.

So ask yourself a simple question: which state has the highest divorce rate? Marriage was a key issue in the last election, with Massachusetts' gay marriages becoming a symbol of alleged blue state decadence and moral decay. But in actual fact, Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the country at 2.4 divorces per 1,000 inhabitants. Texas - which until recently made private gay sex a criminal offence - has a divorce rate of 4.1. A fluke? Not at all. The states with the highest divorce rates in the U.S. are Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Texas. And the states with the lowest divorce rates are: Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Vermont. Every single one of the high divorce rate states went for Bush. Every single one of the low divorce rate states went for Kerry. The Bible Belt divorce rate, in fact, is roughly 50 percent higher than the national average.

Some of this discrepancy can be accounted for by the fact that couples tend to marry younger in the Bible Belt - and many clearly don't have the maturity to know what they're getting into. There's some correlation too between rates of college education and stable marriages, with the Bible Belt lagging a highly educated state like Massachusetts. But the irony still holds. Those parts of America that most fiercely uphold what they believe are traditional values are not those parts where traditional values are healthiest. Hypocrisy? Perhaps. A more insightful explanation is that these socially troubled communities cling onto absolutes in the abstract because they cannot live up to them in practice.

But doesn't being born again help bring down divorce rates? Jesus, after all, was mum on the subject of homosexuality, but was very clear about divorce, declaring it a sin unless adultery was involved. A recent study, however, found no measurable difference in divorce rates between those who are "born again" and those who are not. 29 percent of Baptists have been divorced, compared to 21 percent of Catholics. Moreover, a staggering 23 percent of married born-agains have been divorced twice or more. Teen births? Again, the contrast is striking. In a state like Texas, where the religious right is extremely strong and the rhetoric against teenage sex is gale-force strong, the teen births as a percentage of all births is 16.1 percent. In liberal, secular, gay-friendly Massachusetts, it's 7.4, almost half. Marriage itself is less popular in Texas than in Massachusetts. In Texas, the percent of people unmarried is 32.4 percent; in Massachusetts, it's 26.8 percent. So even with a higher marriage rate, Massachusetts manages a divorce rate almost half of its "conservative" rival.

Or take abortion. America is one of the few Western countries where the legality of abortion is still ferociously disputed. It's a country where the religious right is arguably the strongest single voting bloc, and in which abortion is a constant feature of cultural politics. Compare it to a country like Holland, perhaps the epitome of socially liberal, relativist liberalism. So which country has the highest rate of abortion? It's not even close. America has an abortion rate of 21 abortions per 1,000 women aged between 15 and 44. Holland has a rate of 6.8. Americans, in other words, have three times as many abortions as the Dutch. Remind me again: which country is the most socially conservative?

Even a cursory look at the leading members of the forces of social conservatism in America reveals the same pattern. The top conservative talk-radio host, Rush Limbaugh, has had three divorces and an addiction to pain-killers. The most popular conservative television personality, Bill O'Reilly, just settled a sex harassment suit that indicated a highly active adulterous sex life. Bill Bennett, the guru of the social right, was for many years a gambling addict. Karl Rove's chief outreach manager to conservative Catholics for the last four years, Deal Hudson, also turned out to be a man with a history of sexual harassment. Bob Barr, the conservative Georgian congressman who wrote the "Defense of Marriage Act," has had three wives so far. The states which register the highest ratings for the hot new television show, "Desperate Housewives," are all Bush-states.

The complicated truth is that America truly is a divided and conflicted country. But it's a grotesque exaggeration to say that the split is geographical, or correlated with blue and red states. Many of America's biggest "sinners" are those most intent on upholding virtue. In fact, it may be partly because they know sin so close-up that they want to prevent its occurrence among others. And some of those states which have the most liberal legal climate - the Northeast and parts of the upper MidWest - are also, in practice, among the most socially conservative. To ascribe all this to "hypocrisy" seems to me too crude an explanation. America is simply a far more complicated and diverse place than crude red and blue divisions can explain.

they are adding police and only in the big cities do they have paid firemen. The rest are volunteers.

I look at it this way: If a state can't stay in the black, then they have to cut spending some place that wouldn't jeopardize the safety of the citizens. Threats of cutting essential services like Barney Fife stated today are unjustified. Cut the non-essential services first.

Our governor talks about cutting back on services, laying off government workers, which I think is a good idea because government is too big anyway, but then he turns around and spends more money on non-essential items. Doesn't make sense.  

Is this what is going on in the churchs now?  Fear tactics that we are all doomed to he**?  Our society is morally based.  Go walk around the Middle East for a day and you will appreciate just how moral we are.  The public schools aren't there to raise our children and at least they can go to school.  You don't have to put your child in the public school system, that is also the beauty of choice in our country.  Try having your child dodge bombs instead or be taught to strap bombs to themselves and die in the name of God.  I'll take the science class any day over that.  You can teach your children to have faith and to read books based on opinions and science.  We aren't stupid, we can make our own decisions.  I love the fact that my son can argue all points of view.  He was taught evolution, so what?  He is smart enough to make his own decision, just like you!  All opinions should be presented to grow and learn.  If there was only one point of view, how would we know how to chose? 

OBAMA'S CHURCH

Subject: TRINITY UNITED CHURCH OF CHRIST

During this campaign for the Presidency, It's interesting that so much had been made of Mitt Romney's Mormom religion, while we heard/hear so little of Barack Obama's, outside of the denials of his being Muslim.

However, if you look more closely at Trinity United Church of Christ, Obama's church, it sounds more like a racist cult than anything else, with a committment, not to America, but to Africa. Scary, when you consider this man could be the President of this United States.

Please go to this church's website and read what is written there. It is very alarming. Barack Obama is a member of this church and is running for President of the U.S. If you look at the first page of their website, you will learn that this congregation has a non-negotiable commitment to Africa. No where is AMERICA even mentioned.  Notice too, what color you will need to be if you should want to join Obama's church... B-L-A-C-K!  Whites attend, I have also read, but are not members.  Doesn't look like his choice of religion has improved much over his (former?) Muslim upbringing.  This guy desires to rule over America while his loyalty is totally vested in a Black Africa!  It is so important to pass this message along to all of our family & friends. To think that Obama has even the slightest chance in the run for the presidency, is really scary. This is the web page for the church Barack Obama belongs to:

www.tucc.org/about.htm

and then I saw/heard him speak yesterday and only see young white people always arround him....where are these black folks who are supporting him?  The whites on TV clamoring around him far outweigh the number of blacks ALL the time that I see, I do not get that....it should be mixed in my mind wherever he speaks/goes to. 

I am not a racist so please do not attack me.....

WEST BEND, Wis. (AP) - Thirty-three pastors in 22 states used their sermons to make pointed recommendations about political candidates today.

The effort was orchestrated by the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund.

The conservative legal group plans to send copies of the pastors' sermons to the Internal Revenue Service with hope of setting off a legal fight and abolishing restrictions on church involvement in politics.

Critics call it unnecessary, divisive and unlikely to succeed.

The Reverend Eric Williams of Columbus has organized 55 religious leaders across the nation to file a complaint about the ADF's challenge.

The minister with the liberal United Church of Christ says churches should stand apart from the government.

I don't care what anyone believes or practices - freedom of religion 

It's the freaks who think THEIR religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion who scare me.

Even Jesus was a liberal.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,592419,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Antiwar Sermon Brings IRS Warning

All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena risks losing its tax-exempt status because of a former rector's remarks in 2004.

By Patricia Ward Biederman and Jason Felch
Times Staff Writers

November 7, 2005

The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election.

Rector J. Edwin Bacon of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena told many congregants during morning services Sunday that a guest sermon by the church's former rector, the Rev. George F. Regas, on Oct. 31, 2004, had prompted a letter from the IRS.

In his sermon, Regas, who from the pulpit opposed both the Vietnam War and 1991's Gulf War, imagined Jesus participating in a political debate with then-candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry. Regas said that good people of profound faith could vote for either man, and did not tell parishioners whom to support.

But he criticized the war in Iraq, saying that Jesus would have told Bush, Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.

On June 9, the church received a letter from the IRS stating that a reasonable belief exists that you may not be tax-exempt as a church … The federal tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from intervening in political campaigns and elections.

The letter went on to say that our concerns are based on a Nov. 1, 2004, newspaper article in the Los Angeles Times and a sermon presented at the All Saints Church discussed in the article.

The IRS cited The Times story's description of the sermon as a searing indictment of the Bush administration's policies in Iraq and noted that the sermon described tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.

As Bacon spoke, 1984 Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a co-celebrant of Sunday's Requiem Eucharist, looked on.

We are so careful at our church never to endorse a candidate, Bacon said in a later interview.

One of the strongest sermons I've ever given was against President Clinton's fraying of the social safety net.

Telephone calls to IRS officials in Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles were not returned.

On a day when churches throughout California took stands on both sides of Proposition 73, which would bar abortions for minors unless parents are notified, some at All Saints feared the politically active church had been singled out.

I think obviously we were a bit shocked and dismayed, said Bob Long, senior warden for the church's oversight board. We felt somewhat targeted.

Bacon said the church had retained the services of a Washington law firm with expertise in tax-exempt organizations.

And he told the congregation: It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts.

After the initial inquiry, the church provided the IRS with a copy of all literature given out before the election and copies of its policies, Bacon said.

But the IRS recently informed the church that it was not satisfied by those materials, and would proceed with a formal examination. Soon after that, church officials decided to inform the congregation about the dispute.

In an October letter to the IRS, Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said, It seems ludicrous to suggest that a pastor cannot preach about the value of promoting peace simply because the nation happens to be at war during an election season.

Owens said that an IRS audit team had recently offered the church a settlement during a face-to-face meeting.

They said if there was a confession of wrongdoing, they would not proceed to the exam stage. They would be willing not to revoke tax-exempt status if the church admitted intervening in an election.

The church declined the offer.

Long said Bacon is fond of saying it's a sin not to vote, but has never told anyone how to vote. We don't do that. We preach to people how to vote their values, the biblical principles.

Regas, who was rector of All Saints from 1967 to 1995, said in an interview that he was surprised by the IRS action and then I became suspicious, suspicious that they were going after a progressive church person.

Regas helped the current church leadership collect information for the IRS on his sermon and the church's policies on involvement in political campaigns.

Some congregants were upset that a sermon citing Jesus Christ's championing of peace and the poor was the occasion for an IRS probe.

I'm appalled, said 70-year-old Anne Thompson of Altadena, a professional singer who also makes vestments for the church.

In a government that leans so heavily on religious values, that they would pull a stunt like this, it makes me heartsick.

Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank, questioned whether the 3,500-member church would be under scrutiny if it were not known for its activism and its liberal stands on social issues.

The question is, is it politically motivated? he said. That's the underlying feeling of everyone here. I don't have enough information to make a decision, but there's a suspicion.

Bacon revealed the IRS investigation at both morning services. Until his announcement, the mood of the congregation had been solemn because the services remembered, by name, those associated with the church who had died since last All Saints Day.

Regas' 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush's positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons.

In the sermon, Regas said, President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.'

Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.

If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, Why is so little mentioned about the poor?''

In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I'm not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child.

When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.

Owens, the tax attorney, said he was surprised that the IRS is pursuing the case despite explicit statements by Regas that he was not trying to influence the congregation's vote.

I doubt it's politically motivated, Owens said. I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are.

According to Owens, six years ago the IRS used to send about 20 such letters to churches a year. That number has increased sharply because of the agency's recent delegation of audit authority to agents on the front lines, he said.

He knew of two other churches, both critical of government policies, that had received similar letters, Owens said.

It's unclear how often the IRS raises questions about the tax-exempt status of churches.

While such action is rare, the IRS has at least once revoked the charitable designation of a church.

Shortly before the 1992 presidential election, a church in Binghamton, N.Y., ran advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy, and the tax agency ruled that the congregation could not retain its tax-exempt status because it had intervened in an election.

Bacon said he thought the IRS would eventually drop its case against All Saints.

It is a social action church, but not a politically partisan church, he said.

I have a lot of conservative friends and I seriously doubt they would condone this.   I knew there was a reason I stayed away from these boards.   As the poster above said, your post came up in a headline or I would never have come here.  

Sweet Victory: United Methodist Church Calls For Withdrawal

It's one thing when former high-ranking members of your own Administration come out against your war. It's another thing when two-thirds of the country calls the invasion and occupation a mistake. It's really something when your own church issues a statement urging you to pull out the troops now.

Last week, the United Methodist Church Board of Church and Society--the social action committee of the church that both President Bush and Vice President Cheney belong to--resoundingly passed a resolution calling for withdrawal with only two 'no' votes and one abstention.

As people of faith, we raise our voice in protest against the tragedy of the unjust war in Iraq, the statement read. Thousands of lives have been lost and hundreds of billions of dollars wasted in a war the United States initiated and should never have fought.... We grieve for all those whose lives have been lost or destroyed in this needless and avoidable tragedy. Military families have suffered undue hardship from prolonged troop rotations in Iraq and loss of loved ones. It is time to bring them home.

The board also issued a strong statement against torture, urging Congress to create an independent, bipartisan commission to investigate detention and interrogation practices at Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is my hope and prayer that our statement against the war in Iraq will be heard loud and clear by our fellow United Methodists, President Bush and Vice President Cheney, said Jim Winkler, General Secretary of the UMC's Board of Church and Society. Conservative and liberal board members worked together to craft a strong statement calling for the troops to come home and for those responsible for leading us into this disastrous war to be held accountable.

With its bold stands against the Administration, the UMC is fulfilling the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who called for the church to be not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion but a thermostat that transformed the mores of society.

Bush has asserted that he entered Iraq on a direct order from God. Now, he has a direct order from his own church to leave. Is he listening?

Michelle and Barack Obama's association with Trinity Unity church dates back to around 1988 (Obama, age 27) when they were civil right attorneys in Chicago and engaged in voter registration drives in South Chicago.  Being young, biracial and a recent graduate from Harvard Law School with international heritage and early life experiences, he was searching for the meaning of black identity in America.  It seems like a black church would be a reasonable place for a Christian to take that search.  Trinity Unity Church in South Chicago engages in the following ministry programs of common interest to both himself and his wife, who were active in that community at that time.     

1.    Seniors activities.

2.    Adopt-a-student. 

3.    Economic development and health education in Africa.

4.    Sports, career development.

5.    Caribbean cultural education. 

6.    Social justice advocacy. 

7.    Bible study. 

8.    Individual, family, group and grief crisis counseling. 

9.    Children, youth, men and women modern dance, ballet and interpretive dance, including African roots of dance in worship. 

10.   Domestic violence support services. 

11.   Drama.

12.   Drill teams. 

13.   Drug and alcohol recovery. 

14.   Fine arts and literary guild. 

15.   Food share. 

16.   Girl Scouts.

17.   Health advisory for the prevention of physical and mental illnesses. 

18.   High school counseling. 

19.   HIV/AIDs education. 

20.   Housing seminars, including tax sales, avoiding foreclosure, purchase of HUD homes, finance mortgages. 

21.   Christian, cultural and social focus groups on "coming into womanhood."

22.   Information technology, self determination for the physically, mentally and/or emotionally handicapped. 

23.   Legal counseling. 

24.   Marriage counseling. 

25.   Math tutoring. 

26.   Instruction in audio, visual, print, photography and telecommunications. 

27.   Men's groups and fellowship. 

28.   Development of spiritual, economic, social and political viability of the African American community.

29.   Partnership programs across ministries.

30.   Messengers of Faith high school choir.

31.   Little Warriors for Christ choir for ages 6 years to 8^th grade.

32.   Men's Chorus.

33.   Sanctuary choir for adult men and women.

34.   Women's Chorus.

35.    Walaika Choir for 3 to 5 year olds.

36.    Newness of Life guidance for life's spiritual journey.

37.   Prison ministry weekly visits to prisons to provide support for prison families and engage inmates in rap sessions and training programs. 

38.   Christian role models and mentors for boys and girls of elementary school age. 

39.   Reading/literacy program.

40.   Sign language- Bible studies and other programs for the hearing impaired.

41.   Singles groups for never married, divorced, widowed, single parents and same gender.

42.   Women's groups.

43.   New member orientation and financial aid for members enrolled in seminaries.

44.   Tangeni adult dance rehearsals, seminars and retreats.

45.   Taped worship services/visitation for members and extended family, who are hospitalized, shut-ins or in extended care facilities.

46.   Computer classes.

47.   Church usher program, all ages.

48.   Women's guild volunteers for nursing home resident visitation.

49.   Yoga physical, mental and spiritual fitness.

50.   Young adults/teenage groups.

51.   Christian character development of cultural and spiritual awareness.

52.   Youth Christian education, music, prayers and crafts activities groups.