Do you honestly think the Iranian president can be reasoned with?
Posted By: a question on 2006-04-11
In Reply to: I hope you read the article - PK
I know you think Bush is as evil as he is (maybe you think Bush is worse) but do you honestly think the Iranian president is a reasonable person? I think nukes should be a last resort, but it should be in the contingency. I think you and the writer of the article are looking at this all wrong. Sometimes you have to saber rattle. When the neighborhood bully is issuing threats and does not appear open to negotiation you have to show him you can beat him up, and basically that's true. We could light up his little sandbox of a country inside of 30 minutes. He knows that, but he's just testing the waters to see how passive, poll-sensitive our country has become. He, like the rest of the fundamentalist Islam Jihadists, are testing what our resolve is.
Hey, but have a good shopping spree. I'd hate to have to count on a nuclear war to erase my debt...
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No more than the American president can be reasoned with.
Iran is claiming they want this resource for ENERGY. However, I believe if I were an Iranian and saw what happened next door to me and throughout the region, I believe I would want to *scare* America with the threat of retaliation if attacked for the same *reason* (regime change) as Iraq. You don't even need ONE working brain cell to be able to understand that Iran is trying to protect itself from American occupation and war, knowing what an erratic, unstable president the US is stuck with.
You might consider Iranian people who don't believe in Christianity but instead believe in their own religion to be *jihadists* but what do you call someone who tells Mahmoud Abbas that *God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.*
It seems clear to me that all Iran is doing is flexing its muscles and trying to stand up to Bush. Like him or not, he was elected by the Iranian people, and they should be entitled to the *freedom* that Bush always boasts to be a sovereign nation and have the government they choose.
If I were Iranian and saw my neighbors in Iraq be forced to go without clean water and electricity, plus being forced to live in a war zone where they never know when an IED will explode in their face, I sure as heck wouldn't want anything to do with America.
Bush is being the aggressor in this case. He has no tolerance for diplomacy (as he proved before going to war against Iraq). He never had the GUTS to personally fight in Vietnam, but he doesn't mind squandering the lives of American soldiers for NO GOOD REASON in a war that was based on nothing but lies.
Now he wants to take it beyond soldiers' lives, and he wants to use NUCLEAR weapons. Once Bush's term is done, the only living entities on this planet that will be able to survive Bush's nuclear holocaust will be ROACHES!
Bush and Ahmadinejad are both whack jobs and people who can't be reasoned with (which makes this an especially dangerous situation), but those who continue to defend Bush and his bizarre actions (approximately one in FIVE now) will never admit to that.
Regarding my *shopping spree*, I was trying to be facetious, but I'm not surprised that you couldn't/wouldn't comprehend that. 
I've actually listened to what the Iranian president says.?
You said for liberals only, so excuse my intrustion into your world, but have you honestly not listened to some of the speeches he makes in his own country which usually begin something like *Death to America* etc. etc.? He's sounding all diplomatic right now, because he knows that his soldiers got caught in Hezobollah's forces, and he knows he has everything to lose. I'm going to watch it not because I think he's the best thing since sliced bread like some of you do, but because it's going to be real interesting when on Monday morning the free press rolls out all the hate/kill America speeches he's made, but you all will just believe they are fabricated too.
The Iranian president is a whack job & needs to be snuffed out.
FOR LIBERALS ONLY: 60 Minutes Interviews Iranian President Sunday.
I am looking forward to watching this interview because I am truly interested in hearing what this man has to say.
I can recall as a child growing up to the tune of We have to fight Vietnam because the Communists want to take over the world. During those times, the worst thing a person could be called in the USA was a Communist.
It seems to me these days the USA is the one that wants to take over the world. It has no respect for any government that cares about its poor people or even America's poor, for that matter. (For example, Chavez tried to provide cheap oil to the poor last winter while Bush didn't care if poor Americans froze to death.) Any country that removes the profit incentive from medicine or education for its citizens is a terrorist nation in Bush's eyes. We're quickly approaching the day when most of us will be poor as the middle class continues to disintegrate before our eyes.
I am suspect of everyone Bush labels as terrorist these days, and I want to hear both sides. Bush refuses to sit down diplomatically and listen to what Ahmadinejad has to say, so I'm grateful that Mike Wallace took the time to do so.
The Iranian President has challenged Bush to a live debate...sm
I would be interested in hearing that. One quote from the article:
The debate should be uncensored in order for the American people to be able to listen to what we say and they should not restrict the American people from hearing the truth.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5295550.stm
I'm not Iranian
Nor is my husband. The friend is. He married a Korean. They chose conservatism. I may not have clarified that. Sorry about that.
I have to wonder where many get their news. I know politics every which-way, so won't even go there. I kick total butt at it.
Not interested in this.
From one Iranian spouse to another...
Left me get this straight. You are married to an Iranian, yet you paint Iranians with such a broad brushstroke that you suggest negotiations can only take place with radical Islamic extremists? Do you also include his family (your in-laws) in that monolith? Are you able to distinguish between the single ultra-conservative party, the 7 main parties of the conservative alliance, the other 11 main parties of the reformist coalition, the 3 repressed parties of the dissident coalition inside Iran and the roughly 70 separate parties living in the Iranian diaspora, which roughly break down as follows:
• 17 communist parties
• 8 socialist and social-democrat parties
• 24 ethnic-based parties
• 6 nationalist parties
• 9 liberal democrat parties
• 4 conservative parties
Let’s not overlook the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of Iran and has the final word in all aspects of foreign and domestic policies.
When you say you and your husband are active in conservative politics, I assume you refer to US brand of conservatism…or is it the Iranian brand? There is a difference, you know…or do you? Do you speak Farsi? Are you confident that you know exactly where your husband stands when it comes to the politics inside his own country….you know, that discussion he has in Farsi with his buddies in social gatherings and over the telephone?
Are you at all familiar with the recent history of Iranian politics, i.e. the era of the US CIA-sponsored coup to overthrow Mosadegh in the early 1950s to restore the exiled shah to power and the disastrous consequences that have ensued, an act which ushered in the current era of ill-advised US interference in the region? If you have taken the time to explore any of THEIR issues, even on the most superficial of levels, then you know that the leaders in power do not necessarily reflect the will of their people and by no stretch of the imagination are Iranians all Islamic fundamentalists.
Let us at least extend the respect to our spouses that it just might be possible that Iranians should be in charge of their own political affairs and should not surrender their country as the next US colony in Middle East. It in on their behalf, the behalf of their/your families in Iran, and in our own interest as Americans that these negotiations should commence. It just might be worth a try to present US leadership that uses new approaches to diplomatic issues, starting with the intent to listen as much as the intent to talk, an attempt to establish common goals, mediate differences, engage in dialog void of orders and ultimatums and, at the very least, a commitment to avoid becoming party to nuclear holocaust that has the potential to decimate populations both at home and abroad.
BTW, beware of cowboy diplomatic initiaties. An American Interests Section (quasi precursor to an embassy) will be just that. Translation: An "intelligence" (if such a word can be uttered in the same context as Bush diplomacy) collecting dugout established to gather dirt to manipulate in the US media in an attempt to justify dialing conservative-style nuclear nonproliferation up a notch, just in time for an election. Ain't that handy?
You can't talk to the Iranian leaders
They are the cleric and they are the ones who rule the country. They rule with an iron fist and by the power of Islam. The president of their country is only a puppet just like in the U.S.
We should NOT get involved unless asked, which probably will not happen. Sure, there are some in this country who thinks we should and it's both sides who have that opinion, not just the pubs. President A will be the winner, you can be sure of that, since they are only doing recounts on certain areas of the country (probably those that voted for President A.
You might want to read another article by an Iranian on the other board.
It helps to know both sides of the story and since I am pretty sure Beth is not in Iran right now, or Iranian in nationality, the one who IS there might have a better handle on things. Get the picture?
Don't know which board or which specific Iranian you're referring to.
If you want me to read something, then post it, so I can, but please don't suggest that I go on some kind of wild goose chase on some other unnamed *board* for a post by some unnamed *Iranian.* I simply don't have that kind of time.
If you don't think the Iranian president is nuts, then blame the media and the administration because that's he way he's been portrayed by both, and his actions sure suggest that he is. Please post his redeeming qualities as you see them.
I posted this because I thought it was humorous, yet dead on accurate in the way a lot of Americans feel.
Get the picture? 
If customary deference to a sitting president by president elect
for the rest of us who understand such concepts as respect and traditional protocol, it would qualify as a darned good reason.
Honestly?
I pray our country will not be sold out from under us. Sorry, but this election has me very worried. So many things to consider. About a year ago I would have voted for Obama. I have changed my mind three times since than. I watch all the news channels, jumping from one to another. I must say this drives my husband crazy. But, I feel if you view MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News, you might get some middle ground to work with. About six months ago, I started thinking 'where did the money come from for Obama'. I have four daughters who went to College, and we were middle class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there were lots of student loans. I started looking into Obama's life.
Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan. During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Neither I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they where in college. When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York. It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap! to say the least. Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000. a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York.
By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria, and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student loans? After Law school, he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar' which Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago. In 20 03, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race. In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwoood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko.
Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?
On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley advisor to Obama was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is elected, and he will 'Take care of things'.
Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that where born in Pakistan? They are in charge of all those 'small' Internet campaign contribution for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East?
And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he made a mistake'. Some mistake!
All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008.
Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been reporting this?
A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!
Tell me you don't honestly believe that. How sad.
bulldinky
Honestly,
They feel no more entitled than pretty much any other person in this country. I actually like Bush's speech and Obama's as well. I didn't care for Lowery's one bit tho.
Honestly,
I was looking for someone that wasn't going to try to use smokescreens and magic tricks. I would like for the US to stop sending aid to other countries for awhile so that we can fix our own issues. We have families here in the US that are hungry but yet we send millions overseas without expectation of repayment. I would like a president that is not going to use his position as president to feel he has the right to invade other countries as Bush did with Iraq. We are not the fix all for every countries problems. I would like a president that is truly going to make our military the best in the world again. I would like the welfare systems fixed. I could go on and on but I have work to do. I truly do hope Obama can come up with new solutions to fix old problems this country has had. What we are going through now is nothing new, but past lessons have not been learned.
I honestly don't know what should be done.
First of all, I don't understand why they haven't been brought to trial yet - why can't they be tried in the Hague - isn't that supposed to be the neutral territory for that sort of thing?
I'm not saying that it's not the right thing to do, all I'm saying is that a lot of thought has to go into this because these people have a whole lot to gain by attacking America again. Think how highly they would be revered by their country if they survived Gitmo prison only to be released and succeed in attacking America! What the answer is, I don't know, but just to blindly say we're gonna close it down without any plan of how to actually do it just doesn't make sense to me.
Are you honestly that stupid
that you can't tell the difference between someone hoping someone burns in hell AFTER they die (having had nothing to do with their death) and openly and publicly encouraging America to ASSASSINATE the leader of a country?
Are you really that much of a moron, and as Gadfly said, why in the world do you WANT to openly reveal that to others? Some of you people need some SERIOUS professional help.
I have to say, honestly, I am just not interested.
That is my true feeling on the matter. I am absolutely zero vested in conspiracy theories or ascribing blame. Blame will not bring back anyone and at the same time, I feel there was a long long line of failures leading up to 9/11 that started way before President Bush and continued through many presidencies. I hope, no matter what, in the end they can have peace of mind. I am sure it has to be hard for them.
I'm honestly not sure what was inapproprite
sorry!
Honestly, how can you overlook this? Where were you when they were (sm)
passing out brains? Or did yours just get washed by Obama?
I just watched this. Can honestly say it was
nm
honestly i don't care
where the questions came from. if you have nothing to hide, why not ANSWER THE QUESTION?
Honestly, as our system is now, there is no
reason for anyone to be homeless. Before you tell me, I understand about mental illness and all, and, perhaps, those people are not making a choice, but anyone without enough money to afford a home can get one through our current welfare system--they must only ask.
Honestly wondering
I didn't vote for O, but I think he wants to be a honest, decent president. What I'm wondering is, what is all this hoopla doing to his ego? Who wouldn't be swayed by the fawning, adoring fans, the coronation-like atmosphere in the media and the comparisons to Martin Luther King and Lincoln? How can this NOT give him an inflated sense of self-importance?
So, I'm wondering, when it comes time for him to enter the White House, is his head going to be too big to fit through the door?
He has a serious and important job to do. I wish this day would be treated with the importance it deserves, but not with the carnival atmosphere I've seen displayed.
Honestly, Shelly.
You and I almost never see eye to eye on issues (except I agree 100% with your above comment about filibuster) and sometimes the content of sources you post drive me up a wall, but I've been reading your posts long enough to know that you do not typically get nasty and personal and, for the most part, you try to keep yourself out of the attack mode. At least you do a better job of than than I do.
I guess I'm just feeling old, tired, scared and a little sad. Old enough to remember when the country was not so divided. Tired of feeling like I have to be on the defensive all the time and not being able to talk issues instead of constantly having to wade through a mine field of slams and insults when expressing an opposing view. Scared of getting back on the job market after 6 months of unemployment. Sad because I'm missing the good ole days, which I know deep down in my soul will never be coming back.
I forgot frustrated. Frustrated that I find myself full of sarcasm and anger, sometimes for reasons I cannot even understand myself. I've been active in politics since 1966. More than anything, I love a good healthy debate aimed at exchanging differing points of view and oriented toward common ground and goal-setting, destined toward workable solutions. I used to know how to do that and do it well. Now I'm not so sure I will ever regain that part of myself and I really, really miss that one simple pleasure. Any suggestions?
Honestly, it's all about power
for the democrats in office, in my opinion. They want people to depend on the government so they have more power. That's what should scare the heck out of all of us much more than if they are helping someone in need or not.
You honestly believe the junk you spew
wholeheartedly. You can't believe that even some liberals may be offended at your far leftist projectile vomiting. You are paranoid of anyone who isn't patting your back and affirming you every step of the way. You aren't a mainstream liberal. I know you're not, because I have shared some of your pukings with some liberal acquaintances of mine (yep, believe it or not I pal around with some liberals), and they classify you as a wacko. I read where you are from California. Well, you are probably pretty affirmed in California, but in most of the rest of the country you are far out of the liberal mainstream.
Well, honestly Democrat, the times that has been tried here. sm
I have been tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail by everyone but you.
Honestly, you didn't miss much.
It was not one of his better shows, but he still cracks me up!
you honestly think that was a worthwhile post?
nm
Is this honestly how most Dems treat others?
nm
Oh honestly, how often do you get it "shoved down your throat"?
If it's on a forum, don't read it. If it's on TV, change the channel. I'm sure you don't get Christianity shoved down your throat anymore than we get "Go Obama" shoved down ours and "oh you right wing crazies" and all that other mess!
You honestly think Obama will pray to God before he...
makes a decision? Oh, don't let the liberals hear you say that. They will be calling him Bush Jr. LOL.
Seriously...he CAN make it worse than it already is.
I do pray for the country, continuously...does not mean I need to check my brain at the door and you shouldn't either.
Do u honestly think that was planned overnight?
it would be while Clinton was in office, when he had bin laden handed to him on a silver platter along with other terrorists and didn't take them out THEN.......
You can thank Clinton for that one......the butt kisser
If you honestly studied O's plan, you should be
nm
please answer a sincerely honestly sm
asked question if you don't mind. Who IS YOUR gOD? You never say who your god is?
Honestly sam...you really need to get a life...You are completely obsessed by all this...sm
This is not healthy for you to stress and research over what you cannot control unless of course you are being paid to defend Palin.
Unreal!!!
No, honestly it does not make grammatical sense
no it doesn't
Honestly, it was the "please opine" comment
that struck me the same way. I thought, prior to that, it was a decent discussion.
There has been so much petty partisanship here lately that I guess I took it the wrong way. I apologize.
I have honestly lost track on how many of O's picks
nm
do you honestly think only these appointees are not paying taxes?
These are only getting caught because they are being thoroughly investigated for their positions. How many do you think are cheating and not getting caught because nobody seems to give a darn at the IRS about the big government people, only us little people who are being taxed to death anyway!
Don't waste your breath. No one with a modicum of sense can honestly
believe these things. Some folks just like to stir the pot. Besides, look how the conservatives have cannibalized themselves in the elections past and have attempted to do so this year (claims in South Carolina of McCain being a traitor, etc.).
Some people will only ever see what they want to see. Unfortunately, they are victimized by those that play into their prejudices and fears.
Who honestly cares, as long as the terrorist threat was stopped. sm
Until all of you stop your Bush rabid hatred, the terrorist threat is not only lost on you, you look for something more sinister and it all has to point to Bush. This is really disturbing.
Do you honestly believe that a evil tyrant like Sadam Hussein would NOT have WMDs?
He used chemical warefare on the Kurds in the 1980s. They exist. They were well hidden and are probably now well hidden just across the border into Iraq or Syria. Stop kidding yourselves!
Honestly, it was dumb....twaddle dumb....
x
I would if he were president now...nm
x
Why does President need help with a way out?
That's really scary. I do think if we have any troops come home, it'll be before elections - and not a minute before necessary to have the greatest impact on election results. Wallace should wonder if the families of fallen soldiers would be offended at THAT kind of rank political maneuvering. I know I am.
And what happened to SPREADING DEMOCRACY (like margarine?) in Iraq? Chalabi just appointed the head Taliban judge to office in Iraq, the one who outlawed female education in Afghanistan and sponsored public executions for not wearing burkhas. Is that what we promised the Iraqi people? The whole thing is a huge mess. All the billions and billions Congress authorized for rebuilding Iraq went into Halliburton and other crony pockets and the job was never done. We can't train more Iraqi police units because as soon as we give them guns and tanks they use them on our soldiers. That's why Bush can't tell the truth about how that's going, but that doesn't stop him from continuing to fudge the numbers.
Sadly, Bush won't take any help even if it's offered - not in his game plan apparently.
We need this man as our next president
Someone who can speak so elequently without having to read word from word from notes or prompters.
Someone who knows what the different races are about, understands, and embraces heritages of all backgrounds.
Someone who can meet with our enemies to try and stop the violence and come to agreements.
Someone who is intelligent.
Someone who isn't married to "bad baggage" that will disgrace our white house.
Someone who isn't a war mongerer or voted for the war.
Someone who is truthful to the American people and not deceiptful (sp?) trying to hide things they have done.
Someone who doesn't think they should just be annointed to the white house but actually needs to "earn" the publics vote.
Someone who doesn't believe they should win just because they are from a certain race or gender.
Someone who is calm under fire, can think and act with a clear mind, and doesn't lash out, spew racial or ethnic slurs.
Someone who wants a better country for all people and not just themselves and their close friends and family.
Someone who is relatively "new" to Washington and not the same ol "stuff".
Someone who is working towards our future and not living or trying to live in the past.
Comment: Who cares that people Obama knows (but clearly doesn't share the same viewpoint of which he has had to say over and over and over and over) throws out biggoted or hateful things. You have them on all sides. Hillary's got her people (Ferraro and others) coming out with biggoted and hateful statements and you've got John McCain's people (Cunningham and others) coming out with their biggoted and hateful statements and they too have had to distance themselves. Unfortunately they die away quickly but Obama has to keep repeating himself on the same story. I have a good relationship with my minister, but it doesn't mean I agree with everything he says and if he said terrible things just because I have a good relationship with him doesn't mean I agree with him. - Just get tired of Obama having to repeat the same things over and over. Kind of reminds me of the line in a movie I heard once. "I don't know how many different ways I can tell you the same story." - and - "Have IQ's just dropped sharply since I've been away".
It's true we are not going to be able to change a true biggot. Some people will just not vote for him because he's part black, just like some other people will also not vote for Hillary because she's a woman. I just hope there are enough good Americans to overcome that and do the right thing (at least what I believe is the right thing). But it is getting tiring listening to the opponents stir up a bunch of hateful things trying to get the people to vote against him and time and time again I read this board and will read the same comments over and over "did you hear what Obama's minister said". It's like listening to a broken record and I always think - they're not actually bring this up again???
I believe our country needs a lot of healing. We've got a long way to go on the racial issues/hatred towards one race or another. We've got to try to make amends with the people who we fear and call our enemies, when in fact the people we should be fearing is our own government. We've put years and years into believing our government is going to be truthful with us, but when you have a VP who says "so" when he is told that 2/3 of Americans don't believe in the war and feel we should have not gone to war (DH and I sat with our mouths open), those are the people I consider terro**rists by putting fear in the American people's mind where there should be no fear.
So for that and all the reasons I listed above that is why I'm voting for Obama.
He is NOT my president ...
I didn't vote for him .. Another thing, I will NOT vote for McBush (errr ... McCain). I was a Hilary fan all the way until she couldn't get the nomination .. now I'll switch gears to Obama. Frankly, I think I would could do a better job than Bush .. at least I'd use my common sense!! 
This is who we want for President?
When you look at this video (link below), I promise you
> will NOT BELIEVE your eyes and ears. Take a look at the You
> Tube link below and pass it on. This is a view of John
> McCain that you probably won't see on the Network news.
> If it weren't serious, it would be hilarious.
>
> p;nb sp;
Probably for the best. Once someone becomes President,
it seems like even if they are an excellent choice, they have to use far too much of their time, skill and energy just defending themselves from the other side. No one ever really wins, least of all, US.
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