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Christianity and government.

Posted By: Holy Moly on 2008-10-27
In Reply to:

The United States of America is comprised of people with many different religious beliefs. Each and every one of us is entitled to a government that is not biased towards any particular religion. We are all equal in this Country whether we are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Mormons, atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, etc. I am not a Christian and do not want Christian beliefs forced on me or any other citizen of the United States of America. That is why there are churches, and that is where it should stay.

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christianity and who
muslims are to terrorism and suicide bombings what christians are to child-molestation and clinic bombers
Christianity......
You're right. Our nation was founded on the principals of Christianity and I am SICK AND TIRED of it being pushed off as just a bunch of "religious zealots". That would be the Muslims. And I don't care what anyone else says about it, that is just what they want, to have countries make laws that prohibit the name of Jesus to even be spoken, while they continue to spew hatred and tell us how THEIR God teaches to hate everyone else but themselves.

Christians need to stand up for themselves and do it without caring what others think. Being meek does not mean you let others that mean you harm walk all over our country, our laws, our God. Every time I turn around there's some garbage about a Muslim wanting to have a special foot bath in their school or some such junk and I am sick of it!!!!! This is for the most part a Christian country (minus those that have no belief) and people need to stop hiding in the corners as if they are afraid to speak the name of Jesus Christ, afraid of what others may think.
Christianity
I'm not so sure people know what Christianity really is. People had made interpretations of what he said, but I know myself from conversation that people misinterpret what others mean all the time.

There are theologians who are now thinking that he did not mean He is the way to Heaven (the whole believing he died for our sins thing) but more his way of thinking (as he was actually trying to teach people). That makes a lot more sense than the original interpretation.
And he spouts like this in the name of christianity...sm
which I think he is misrepresenting and twisting. One can only hope that his dwindling croud picks up their Bible and reads it for themselves. Last thing I heard he was loosing ratings and support big time anywho. I always make sure my TVs are not on the station his show comes on. I wouldn't want him to slip up and get not one rating point from me.

Spewing hate in the name of religion. That does sound eeriely similar to a terrorist jihadist.
Christianity is not a cult?
Seriously? You might want to check a dictionary.
Christianity did not exist............. sm
in the name of Christianity until Jesus left this earth. (Acts 11:26). Homosexuality was defined as wrong long before that.

Neither is Christianity hurting anyone......
--
Christianity and Politics (in a nutshell)
Okay here is just a generalized reasoning of why most Christians are voting republican.

Obama supports abortion. True Christians who believe that the ENTIRE Bible is the infallible Word of God believe that God gave life and we do not have the right to take it away.

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13-16).

"This is what the LORD says—he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you..."(Isaiah 44:2).

There are a bunch more but those are a few.

Next, Obama supports gay marriage. The Bible tells us that 1) Homosexuality is a sin and 2) Marriage is for one man and one woman.

As I said before, homosexuality is no greater or less a sin than telling a white lie or murder. It is also a forgivable sin. If God thought homosexuality was okay, he would had given us the "parts" to reproduce with other women, or men with other men.

These are the two main issues that we disagree with. Obama is not a true Christian if he can say this is okay.

Now of course if you don't know Jesus as your Savior or you don't believe in the Bible then you're just going to say we are crazy, mean, hateful, etc.

Faith is a gift from God, and without it you simply can't begin to comprehend Him or His Word. He gives faith to those who EARNESTLY seek him.

Just for anyone who was truly interested in knowing why the majority of us are voting Republican. I can pretty much guarantee you if a democratic nominee had these same views we would vote for them, or if an independent had a chance to win and had these views we would vote for them. We don't just blindly affiliate with one party.
Ku Klux Klan and Christianity
The History Channel just aired a program regarding the relationship between the Ku Klux Klan and Christianity. The Ku Klux Klan website has the following statement at the top of the page.

Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!
I do not get you! Obama converted to Christianity, what more
do you want? He confessed to Christianity!!
Or do you think that this is all a conspiracy and he will suddenly emerge as Ahmedinejad, the second. II ?

Obama converted 1992 to Christianity, 2009 he became President, 17 years later!

This isd proof that he did not convert to Christianity to become President, he did it much earlier.

It was just his destiny to become President, already at the age of 8 years, in Jakarta, when he was asked what he wanted to become, Obama said: 'I want to become a President.'


this country was founded on Christianity sm
go back and read your original history books, not the ones they are trying to sanitize and make politically correct. Regardless of the popular belief, this is a Christian nation. Yes we have other religions here but the nation itself was founded on Christianity and the words of the one true God. We are NOT a secular country and I don't care what Obama and the left say, we are a Christian nation.........at least until Obama has anything to do with it and he turns it into a Muslim nation. You may be disappointed then.
I was thinking too, that the right wing version of Christianity...sm
does not necessary practice much *tolerance* much less acceptance or embracing of other religions and/or cultures itself. They should expect to get as good as they give.
Common decency is not exclusive to Christianity. (NM)
xx
So by posting this, you assume that all liberals feel this way about Christianity?
I certainly know that is not true.  No one has a right to judge any human being's Christianity but God.  Yes, I know your headline said *liberals only* but, of course, that is an invitation to look, isn't it?  I doubt seriously that this writer knows how *the majority* of Christians feel on anything, including the death penalty.  He also shows a very marked lack of understanding and knowledge of what is in the Bible.  Though I am not an Ann Coulter fan, I have never known her to lean heavily on her Christianity when speaking. The last time I looked, there is no picture next to Christianity in the encyclopedia.
And yet when Christianity is mentioned, many on the left promptly point to the right.
Why is that?
guess not. Wonder if God has called some of these folks for consultation on Christianity yet? LOL
x
The Founding Fathers were not Christians and the country was not founded on Christianity
I hate to disagree with you sam because I usually find you right on the spot about a lot, but this time I do disagree...

One of the most common statements is that the country was “founded on Christian principles by Christian men”. However, research into American history shows this statement is false. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true.

None of the Founding Fathers were atheists. Most of the Founders were Deists, which is to say they thought the universe had a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. They spoke often of God, (Nature's God or the God of Nature), but this was not the God of the bible. They did not deny that there was a person called Jesus, and praised him for his benevolent teachings, but they flatly denied his divinity. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible, and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

Yes, there were Christian men among the Founders. Just as Congress removed Thomas Jefferson's words that condemned the practice of slavery in the colonies, and altered his wording regarding equal rights increasing its religious overtones.

The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Extremists had their way with this country. The Founders clearly did not heed what was written in the bible. If they were in fact "good" Christians, there would never have been an American Revolution. Here are some statements and quotes.

John Adams – “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

George Washington – The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.
George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary. Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative.

Benjamin Franklin - ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Thomas Paine – Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

Other founders who were deists...Ethan Allen, James Madison & James Monroe.

Also, when the Constitution was written they wanted to ensure that no single religion make the claim of being the official national religion like England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion exception in exclusionary terms. However, the words “Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God are never mentioned – not even once. The 1796 treaty with Tripoli states that the US was “in no sense founded on the Christian religion”.
Jewish family flees Delaware school district's aggressive Christianity

This is terrible.  :-(














Jewish family flees Delaware school district's aggressive Christianity


by JewsOnFirst.org, June 28, 2006

Note: On July 11th, we posted two follow-up reports, which you can find here. And on August 23rd, we posted another update here.

Links to articles and documents cited in our report appear immediately below it

A large Delaware school district promoted Christianity so aggressively that a Jewish family felt it necessary to move to Wilmington, two hours away, because they feared retaliation for filing a lawsuit. The religion (if any) of a second family in the lawsuit is not known, because they're suing as Jane and John Doe; they also fear retaliation. Both families are asking relief from state-sponsored religion.

The behavior of the Indian River School District board suggests the families' fears are hardly groundless.

The district spreads over a considerable portion of southern Delaware. The families' complaint, filed in federal court in February 2005, alleges that the district had created an environment of religious exclusion and unconstitutional state-sponsored religion.

Among numerous specific examples in the complaint was what happened at plaintiff Samantha Dobrich's graduation in 2004 from the district's high school. She was the only Jewish student in her graduating class. The complaint relates that local pastor, Jerry Fike, in his invocation, followed requests for our heavenly Father's guidance for the graduates with:

I also pray for one specific student, that You be with her and guide her in the path that You have for her. And we ask all these things in Jesus' name.

In addition to the ruined graduation experience, the Dobrich-Doe lawsuit alleges that:


  • The district's custom and practice of school-sponsored prayer was frequently imposed on impressionable non-Christian students, which violated their constitutional rights.
  • The district ignored the Supreme Court's 1992 Lee decision limiting prayer at graduation ceremonies -- even after a district employee complained about the prayer at her child's 2003 graduation..
  • District teachers and staff led Bible clubs at several schools. Club members got to go to the head of the lunch line.
  • While Bible clubs were widely available, student book clubs were rare and often canceled by the district.
  • When Jane Doe complained that her non-Christian son Jordan Doe was left alone when his classmates when to Bible club meetings, district staff insisted that Jordan should attend the club, regardless of his religion.
  • The district schools attended by Jordan and his sister Jamie Doe distributed Bibles to students in 2003, giving them time off from class to pick up the books.
  • Prayer --often sectarian -- is a routine part of district sports programs and social events
  • One of the district's middle schools gave students the choice of attending a special Bible Club if they did not want to attend a lesson on evolution.
  • A middle school teacher told students there was only one true religion and gave them pamphlets for his surfing ministry.
  • Samantha Dobrich's honors English teacher frequently discussed Christianity, but no other religion.
  • Students frequently made mandatory appearances at district board meetings -- where they were a captive audience for board members' prayers to Jesus.

The Dobriches said the prayers to Jesus' ruined the graduation experience for Samantha. Mona Dobrich, Samantha's mother, repeatedly called district officials to complain. A board member told her she would have to get the matter put on a meeting agenda -- then refused to put it on the agenda. The school superintendent slipped the topic onto the agenda and then told Mona Dobrich she would need to raise it during the public comment period.

School board unyielding
The board opened the June 15, 2004 meeting at which Dobrich was prepared to speak with a prayer in Jesus' name. The board was not forthcoming to her request that official prayers be in God's name rather than in Jesus' name. The high school athletic director veered from his agenda topic to encourage the board to keep praying in Jesus' name.

Board member Donald Hattier followed Dobrich out and offered to compromise by keeping graduation free of prayers to Jesus. And, according to the complaint, he warned her not to hire a lawyer.

A large crowd turned out for the next board meeting and many people spoke in support of school prayer. Mona Dobrich spoke passionately of her own outsider experience as a student in Indian River District schools and of how hard she'd worked to make sure her children didn't also feel like outsiders.

Hattier again approached her after the meeting. This time, the complaint alleges, he told her he'd spoken with the Rutherford Institute, a religious right legal group.

Talk show calls out a mob
The district board announced the formation of a committee to develop a religion policy. And the local talk radio station inflamed the issue.

On the evening in August 2004 when the board was to announce its new policy, hundreds of people turned out for the meetng. The Dobrich family and Jane Doe felt intimidated and asked a state trooper to escort them.

The complaint recounts that the raucous crowd applauded the board's opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him: take your yarmulke off! His statement, read by Samantha, confided I feel bad when kids in my class call me Jew boy.

A state representative spoke in support of prayer and warned board members that the people would replace them if they faltered on the issue. Other representatives spoke against separating god and state.

A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might disappear like Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. O'Hair disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later.

The crowd booed an ACLU speaker and told her to go back up north.

In the days after the meeting the community poured venom on the Dobriches. Callers to the local radio station said the family they should convert or leave the area. Someone called them and said the Ku Klux Klan was nearby.

Killing Christ
Classmates accused Alex Dobrich of killing Christ and he became fearful about wearing his yarmulke, the complaint recounts. He took it off whenever he saw a police officer, fearing that the officer might see it and pull over his mother's car. When the family went grocery shopping, the complaint says, Alexander would remove the pin holding his yarmulke on his head for fear that someone would grab it and rip out some of his hair.

The Dobriches refinanced their home so that Mona and Alexander could move to Wilmington, away from a situation that had become untenable, according to the complaint; Marco stayed behind because of his job, .

Ultimately, it continues, the expense of two households forced the Dobriches to sell their home. And Samantha was forced to withdraw from the joint program she attended at Columbia University and the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. She is being treated for depression.

The lawsuit states that the Doe family wants to remain anonymous in order to avoid the retaliation experienced by the Dobrich family. Jordan and Jane Doe are also suffering from depression related to their opposition with the Indian River School District's religion policy.

Elusive religion policy
Even after Mona and Alexander Dobrich moved to Wilmington, the family and its lawyers continued to request the district's policy on religion in the schools and to ask for meetings with the board. Their requests were stonewalled, so in February 2005 they filed suit.

In a statement issued through her attorneys and quoted by the Delaware Wave, Mona Dobrichexplained why the families were suing: We are not trying to remove God from the schools or the public square. We simply don't think it is right for the district to impose a particular religious view on impressionable students.

The families seek to recover damages and to compel changes in the school district's policy.

That policy, however, remains elusive.

At the request of a board member soon after the infamous graduation, the Rutherford Institute, prepared a prayer policy for the school board, according to the complaint. In October 2004 the board reportedly adopted a new policy on religion in response to the Dobrich's complaint.

It is unclear if that policy is the one prepared by the Rutherford Institute -- because no one has seen it. The Dobrich's complaint states that the policy was unavailable and when the families requested it the district told them to file a freedom of information request.

This June, the board had a reading of a proposed change in the unseen policy. They said the policy and its changes would be posted on their website, (www.irsd.net) but on June 27th, it was nowhere to be found among several dozen policy documents.

The Rutherford Institute enters the fray
At the boisterous August 2004 district board meeting, the head of the Rutherford Institute, John Whitehead, urged the board to set an example for other schools, according to the Daily Times, a local paper.

A Rutherford affiliated lawyer, Thomas Neuberger, came into the case representing one of the school board members. Before he left the case last August (because the judge dismissed the individual board members from the case), Neuberger was reportedly feuding with other lawyers.

While he was in the case, his client, Reginald L. Helms reportedly admitted one of the lawsuit's allegations: that school officials invited Pastor Fike to the 2004 graduation. That undermined the district's claim that students chose the speakers.

Neuberger was quoted by the Delaware Wave newspaper denying that the Dobrich's son Alex was taunted as a Jew by classmates. I seriously doubt that it ever occurred, he told the paper, contending that the plaintiffs were using the allegation used to defame the good citizens who serve on this school board.

In its response to the lawsuit, the district reportedly called some of the families' claims immaterial, impertinent and scandalous, and intended only to cast the district in a negative light.

Settlement rejected
In February 2006, the board unanimously rejected a settlement offer that would have required renaming Christmas and Easter breaks to winter and spring, respectively, and to put a Dobrich child at the top of a waiting list for an arts school. It would have permitted board members to continue praying at their meetings. (US District Judge Joseph J. Farnan, Jr., who is hearing the case, ruled last year that the prayer was a historic tradition and could continue.)

In April the board's insurance company, which had been representing the district in the lawsuit, filed suit against it (and the individual board members) because they had, against its advice, rejected the settlement offer. The board then fired the attorneys that had been representing them and hired a new set. The insurance company is reportedly refusing to pay for the board's legal defense from the date the members rejected the settlement offer.

According to the Coastal Point, the insurance company's complaint is sealed, as is the district's response. The district's taxpayers, who will pay the bill if the insurer prevails, cannot know the details of the case.

Attorney Thomas Allingham, who represents the Dobrich family in their case against the school district, says the board's behavior suggests it was not negotiating in good faith. Allingham told JewsOnFirst that several board members attended the settlement negotiations, which were under the auspices of a federal mediator. He said the members approved the settlement during those negotiations. But, when the board voted on the offer, they rejected it unanimously.

Allingham said the plaintiffs remained open to the possibility that the case could be settled. But the case is set for trial in June 2007 in Wilmington.






Board prayer allowed with settlement

By Jonathan Starkey, Coastal Point (Sussex County, Delaware), June 16, 2006

A settlement offered by the plaintiffs in the Dobrich/Doe prayer suit and denied unanimously by the Indian River School board on Feb. 27 would have allowed board members to continue opening monthly meetings with a prayer, a board member and two other sources close to the case told the Coastal Point. Click here for the report (a PDF file).

School board to discuss religion policy

By Jonathan Starkey, Coastal Point (Sussex County, Delaware), June 23, 2006

The policies regarding prayer at graduations and religion in school that were adopted by the Indian River School Board on Oct. 19, 2004, after they heard complaints from a Jewish family, might be amended next week.

The board held a first reading on the amended ordinances Tuesday but deferred a vote until after an executive session on Tuesday, June 27. Board members and district Superintendent Lois Hobbs wouldn’t comment on the specifics of the proposed amendments. Click here for the report (a PDF file).

School prayer lawsuit filed against district

By Sean O'Sullivan, Gannett News Service, Delaware Wave, March 2, 2005

Two sets of parents filed a federal lawsuit in Wilmington on Monday that seeks to bar the Indian River School District from promoting religion at school functions.

The parents, who also are seeking damages, claim in the lawsuit that their rights to free speech and to be free from state-sponsored religion have been violated.

We didn't want a lawsuit, but at this point we feel like we don't have any other choice, said Mona Dobrich, one of the parents, in a statement provided by attorney Thomas J. Allingham. We are not trying to remove God from the schools or the public square. We simply don't think it is right for the district to impose a particular religious view on impressionable students. Continue

School district disputes lawsuit

By Sean O'Sullivan, Gannett News Service, Delaware Wave, May 4, 2005

WILMINGTON -- Indian River school officials have filed papers in federal court denying virtually every claim in a Jewish family's lawsuit over school-sponsored Christian prayer.

John Balaguer, attorney for the school district, also asked a U.S. District judge to strike large sections of the complaint as immaterial, impertinent and scandalous.

Balaguer said the items were included solely to cast the district in a negative light. Continue

ACLU Sues to Stop School Board Prayer: Dobrich v. Walls

Rutherford Institute website entry on the Dobrich case.

JOF note: the ACLU is not involved in the case!

Attorneys for The Rutherford Institute have asked the U.S. District Court for the District of Delaware to dismiss a lawsuit recently filed by the ACLU against Reginald Helms in his official capacity as a member of the Indian River School District Board of Education. The lawsuit, which was filed by the ACLU in February 2005 against school board members in their personal and professional capacities, alleges that school- sponsored prayer “has pervaded the life of teachers and students” in the Indian River District schools. In their motion to have the case dismissed, Institute attorneys argue that as a school board member, Helms should have immunity from liability claims under the established doctrine of absolute legislative immunity.

An official with the Indian River School District Board of Education contacted The Rutherford Institute for help in August 2004, after the Wilmington, Del., branch of the ACLU demanded that IRSD board members stop opening their monthly business meetings with a prayer. Attorneys for The Rutherford Institute agreed to represent Reginald Helms, vice president of the IRSD Board of Education, in his individual capacity should the Delaware school district’s practice of opening meetings with a brief prayer be challenged. Despite pressure from the Wilmington chapter of the ACLU to cease issuing prayers at public events, officials with the IRSD opened a school board meeting on Aug. 24, 2004, with a brief invocation. Several hundred members of the community gathered at Frankford Elementary School for the monthly business meeting broke into applause after Board President Harvey Walls asked board member Dr. Donald G. Hattier to lead the board in a word of prayer. Hattier read a prayer given by George Washington during the Revolutionary War. During the business meeting, the board also issued a first reading of a policy concerning school prayer at baccalaureate and commencement ceremonies, which states that student-initiated, student-delivered, voluntary messages may be permitted during graduation ceremonies. Thomas Neuberger, a Rutherford affiliate attorney with the Neuberger Firm, which is based in Wilmington, Del., is defending school board member Reginald Helms against the ACLU’s lawsuit. (link)



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1

The Nazis and Adolf Hitler are commonly thought of as representing the antithesis of Christianity an
America and Britain will rewrite history to suit themselves.......Just like Ws history will be rewritten to hide the fact that he was a major disaster for this country.
I think it all shows that Christianity is valued with the love of the dollar, not the love of Christ
x
They don't want to run the government...
You are exactly right. And that is twisted beyond belief in my opinion. That has absolutely nothing to do with protecting this country or what is best for the country as a whole. It is personal, and like you said, revenge. I wish every state in the nation would do a recall of senators and reps if they start down that road, though I doubt that would ever happen. I saw another post that likened it to fiddling while Rome is burning. They just really do not have a clue. Not a clue.
You bet the government could come up...
with the money to fund the rest. It's called raising taxes, the Democratic mantra. What would Jesus do? I have no doubt that Jesus would say it was the responsibility of parents to take care of their children, for one. I am sure he would also say that a country that murders millions of babies every year has bigger problems than free health care. I am thinking it would be hard to take you seriously. But that is just me.

Don't get me wrong. I think the rest of us should take care of those who truly cannot take care of themselves. I just do not believe this qualifies. Instead of making the hard choices, trying to cut costs, finding better ways to make health care more affordable by tax cuts for those who pay health care premiums, etc., the Democrats want to do what they do so well...dangle something "free" in faces of people at election time. Clinton promised it, and what they came up with was socialized medicine, which went nowhere, thank God. Democrats just want to add entitlement after entitlement, tax us into oblivion and keep us tied to the government apron strings. Otherwise they would look at solutions like tax cuts for those who pay their insurance premiums. But..oh wait. You don't want that. Because you have to pay the premiums to get the tax break, and you don't want to pay the premiums. Pardon me if I don't want to fund that logic.

Truly destitute people, yes, those truly in need we should do everything we can to help them and do. A family of 4 making 80K is not destitute.

How about this. If you want on SCHIP, you have to sign a paper acknowledging they are going to take an additional 3% in income tax on you from now on to offset it. In return you get your "free" health care for your children. No taxes raised on anyone else, including smokers (and no I don't smoke, but I don't think it is any worse asking smokers to pay for expansion of the program if you are not willing to pay for it yourself, after all, you are going to be a user of it).

That sounds like a fine idea to me. Oh, and raise income taxes on all Democrats 3%. That should cover it. Expand the program, users and Democrats pay for it. Sounds like a plan to me. Don't know what you make, but it would surely come to less than $12K a year.

Run that one by your Democratic congressman.

Have a good night!
so let the government tell us??
Sorry, I want less government intervention, not more, in my life.
How do you think the government will
continue to spend when they can't collect taxes to spend because most people don't have jobs and are in need of welfare?????  SOOOOO okay, let's keep fighting about party affiliation.  *IF* Obama is elected I sure hope he turns out to be the modern day FDR.
Government

When a president decides to buy banks, they call that FASCISM.  This is exactly what Bush has done.


Why do you not have a problem with that?


Are all of you so rich that you don't know what the middle class is going through these days?  This country is in a shambles, and people are suffering through no fault of their own.


It's HIGH TIME the plight of the middle class is acknowledged and some help offered.


This "trickle-down" theory is NOT working, and it's time to employ the "trickle-UP" theory.

You must really, really like big government...sm
...that will tax and spend us all right into the ground.

I was hoping he pulls to the center, but it's looking like the O is gonna be way, way left of everybody......yeah, real wonderful feeling, that....

Here's hoping the depression doesn't last too long....
Government knows what they are doing.

They are doing all they can to make THEIR life comfortable.  As long as they are getting paid and their pockets are getting filled with money......that is all they care about.  We can't trust our government.  Look at what trusting the government has done to us so far.  Our economy is in shambles and the government wants to blow over 800 billion dollars again.  This isn't going to fix our economy.  It is just going to raise government spending and leave an even bigger deficit than we already had for our grandchildren.  This stimulus package is a joke.  I am totally against it!


What I want to know is why can't the government start something that would charge companies who outsource production to other countries?  Let them open up a factory in another country but they have to pay a huge tax or something to do it.  Make it to where it isn't a good financial decision so we can keep the jobs we have now and create more.  That would help us MTs out as well.  What is the point of creating jobs in our country if companies can still up and leave to go to other countries?  Seriously....what is made in America?  Even foreign cars like Honda who have factories here in America.....that money still doesn't go to the US.  I know it employes Americans but the majority of the money there still goes out of the country.  I want American made goods made by Americans.  I also think people hiring illegal aliens should be penalized and fined heavily for doing so.  That would stop that crap too. 

So you would rather government

take your money, just like my money, and put it into a package where it gives money to this group and that group and this group over here and just hope that they use that money wisely and that it helps the people who need help?  Like I said before....that worked out swell when we gave money to the banks. 


I don't want my money to go for irresponsible people either but you know what....it is and it will.  You all talk about how everyone should have healthcare and how government should fund healthcare, through taxpayer money, so everyone is insured.  Yet you refuse to give money so people can keep their houses?  Yes, some were irresponsible and were just plain dumb in their decisions and yet some just got a raw deal during this tough time and got dragged down.


You all talk about conservatives flipping sides when a handout comes along but it sounds to me like all these liberals want to help others out until it comes time to give that help.  Healthcare for all paid by taxpayers.  You may not have a home and your kids may not have a warm bed to sleep in....but hey....you got healthcare.....whoooopppeee!

Maybe the government
should legalize marijuana and then tax the he!! out of it too.  They could make more money with all the pot smokers out there.
Sad. The Government is going to own all of us.
nm
Do you get that the government is sm
slowly getting more and more into the lives of the people and telling us what to do and how to live our lives?

This is nothing more than a quick road to total government control of everyone.

Just for arguments sake, they get the stupid "permit." That is nothing but money for the county. The county doesn't care about all these rules and neither do the neighbors. If the folks get their permit and things are the same and don't change.....same amount of people, every week, etc etc, don't you think somebody will find something else to complain about regarding this group?

This is a bunch of nonsense and Christian persecution that Jesus himself said would happen in the last days. Wake up.
Not exactly. The government is getting

100 cartons since 2005, not 1981.


So they don't have to pretend to say anything.  They've got documentation from the vendors.

Okay...if our government

tries to stop us surfing porn sites....that is where I draw the line.  LOL!   


 

If you think the government isn't watching you...think again.
Pay too much and you could raise the alarm

By BOB KERR
The Providence Journal
28-FEB-06

PROVIDENCE, R.I. -- Walter Soehnge is a retired Texas schoolteacher who traveled north with his wife, Deana, saw summer change to fall in Rhode Island and decided this was a place to stay for a while.

So the Soehnges live in Scituate now and Walter sometimes has breakfast at the Gentleman Farmer in Scituate Village, where he has passed the test and become a regular despite an accent that is definitely not local.

And it was there, at his usual table last week, that he told me that he was madder than a panther with kerosene on his tail.

He says things like that. Texas does leave its mark on a man.

What got him so upset might seem trivial to some people who have learned to accept small infringements on their freedom as just part of the way things are in this age of terror-fed paranoia. It's that everything changed after 9/11 thing.

But not Walter.

We're a product of the '60s, he said. We believe government should be way away from us in that regard.

He was referring to the recent decision by him and his wife to be responsible, to do the kind of thing that just about anyone would say makes good, solid financial sense.

They paid down some debt. The balance on their JCPenney Platinum MasterCard had gotten to an unhealthy level. So they sent in a large payment, a check for $6,522.

And an alarm went off. A red flag went up. The Soehnges' behavior was found questionable.

And all they did was pay down their debt. They didn't call a suspected terrorist on their cell phone. They didn't try to sneak a machine gun through customs.

They just paid a hefty chunk of their credit card balance. And they learned how frighteningly wide the net of suspicion has been cast.

After sending in the check, they checked online to see if their account had been duly credited. They learned that the check had arrived, but the amount available for credit on their account hadn't changed.

So Deana Soehnge called the credit-card company. Then Walter called.

When you mess with my money, I want to know why, he said.

They both learned the same astounding piece of information about the little things that can set the threat sensors to beeping and blinking.

They were told, as they moved up the managerial ladder at the call center, that the amount they had sent in was much larger than their normal monthly payment. And if the increase hits a certain percentage higher than that normal payment, Homeland Security has to be notified. And the money doesn't move until the threat alert is lifted.

Walter called television stations, the American Civil Liberties Union and me. And he went on the Internet to see what he could learn. He learned about changes in something called the Bank Privacy Act.

The more I'm on, the scarier it gets, he said. It's scary how easily someone in Homeland Security can get permission to spy.

Eventually, his and his wife's money was freed up. The Soehnges were apparently found not to be promoting global terrorism under the guise of paying a credit-card bill. They never did learn how a large credit card payment can pose a security threat.

But the experience has been a reminder that a small piece of privacy has been surrendered. Walter Soehnge, who says he holds solid, middle-of-the-road American beliefs, worries about rights being lost.

If it can happen to me, it can happen to others, he said.

(Bob Kerr is a columnist for The Providence Journal. E-mail bkerr@projo.com.)

(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, www.shns.com.)
Hmm, I would say most do not trust government.sm
Fear and paranoia are a given, they instill it in us 24/7. Viewership of MSM outlets is way down, so I guess Fox would be #1 with just Bush supporters. I want truth and accountability from the media and our elected officials period. I dumped the Republican party because we are not getting truth or accountability. I will vote for the first candidate that does something about it.
I still don't believe government-controlled...
or provided insurance is the answer. Just today read article about how a bunch of women from Canada who had problem pregnancies had to come to the US to have their babies because of the socialized medicine in Canada because...news flash...you can't put a pregnant woman on a waiting list for treatment because babies are born when babies want to be born...and that is what happens when the government administrates health care. Waiting lists...substandard care...and on and on and on. The VA is a government administered health program...go ahead and tell me THAT works. We need to come up with a better plan than socialized medicine...like prioritizing social spending. If you really want to insure all kids, then give their parents a big tax break for insuring them themselves...don't extend entitlements higher and higher up the income ladder. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. When the troops come home and the war is over, you can talk about that money then. It is nonstarter while we still have troops in combat, no matter who sent them or why (and by the way, it was not George Bush personally, it was your duly elected Congress). We have to fund them while they are in combat. I don't think even the most liberal (no matter what the definition is) would be for withdrawing funding while we still have men and women in combat.
I don't think the government owes me a job
I just don't understand why they go out of their way to send our jobs overseas. The government's job is to protect and serve the American people - not the people of other countries. They need to work for US. The same goes for businesses. If they start ditching American workers for cheaper overseas labor, then who is going to buy all of their products? Americans won't have the money because we'll be jobless!
Yes, but the government shouldn't be
encouraging companies to outsource either. Our country has way messed up priorities when the only people making big bucks are entertainers and greedy CEOs. Meanwhile, we've got unemployed people and poverty. Hey, let's send our money, our technology and our private data to a country that HATES us.
And put in the hands of government?
No thanks. Every time government manages social programs it fails miserably.

The (unregulated) free market is the best way to handle health care another other things.

The problem now is government has their hands too much into the pot with regulation via the insurance companies. You think it's bad now wait until the government has sole control.
Name 1 things Government does well?
1. The post office? Waited in line lately for stamps or to mail a package?

2. Waited in line to renew drivers licence lately?

Compettion is what drives prices down, not mandates form the government
Is that all you got? I think the fact that she can run a government....
which she has been doing, and well too...and still cook for her kids (let the chef go when she was elected), travels on her own dime (got rid of the state jet)...and still have time to see her kids' hockey games is nothing to sneeze at. She does not have to do one to the exclusion of the other. You sound jealous and snippy. Geez.
government controls
the VA system and I know from experience how well that works!!! NOT!! The VA physicians who dealt with my father diagnosed him with an umbilical hernia that turned out to be a huge tumor and he died two weeks later!! He waited for months and months to even get in for a consult through the VA system and that never did happen, as I took him to a local ER and that same day they diagnosed him with end stage colon cancer. He had seen several physicians within the VA system for years. With the government controlling THAT and then they want to control MY healthcare as well? ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? I may have to pay for my insurance but at least I get better healthcare than if the government steps in. I'm so tired of people whining about what the government owes them!! How about people doing for themselves? Everyone goes through hardship. BOOHOO!! I have myself and ya know what???? I got back on my feet by HARD WORK!!! Don't hear me all crying about what the government owes me!!

People need to WAKE UP!!! We all need to take responsibility for ourselves and help who we choose when we choose, not because the government is taking money out of our pockets and telling us who we will help.

VOTE FOR MCCAIN!
Do you think our government should bail out FM/FM

Just wondered what everyone thinks about this subject.  I haven't seen it discussed yet and if it has been sorry.  Do you think the government should bail out these two institutions and if so, or not so, why?


I heard someone on the TV today (didn't recognize the name but he's an idependent) he asked the question, so is it going to be the people who make $30K a year the ones who pay for this or the billionaires and trillionaires?  I thought that was a good point.


Also I heard that one of the guys in charge (forget his name right now) made over $90 million and he isn't paying anything.  I would think that if you make over $90M on this and you run it into the ground you should have to forfeit whatever you made and pay it back (but that's my own opinion).


 

Why states' government is just as

Just to narrow their choices down to who they want instead of letting the people decide, as in a free democracy, even the states are changing their rules without the knowledge of its citizens..........


http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/editorials/URGENT_Party_Switching_Deadlines.html


 

Maybe he should run for some other government office.
He is soooooo right, the less government does,
http://www.eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=3304&title=Ron_Paul_on_Fox_Business_Oct__3rd__2008__Pre_Bailout_
Government sponsored god

I don't think I want to see that.


Your post that Jesus loves us even if we don't love him put a song running through my head.....Alzheimer.........what's the name of it, "He loved me ere I knew him, so all my love is due him...."  What's the NAME of that hymn?????

Government take God....either he's in your heart
$$
You seemed to be lost as to what a government
You need to read your constitution. The government is not supposed to "save you" from anything. It's supposed to be in place to provide a military for our country, nothing more. You think without government interference we are somehow uncivilized? Are you kidding?

Government is and will always be the most corrupt thing in this society. You want a corrupt government taking YOUR money and purportedly giving it to the "needy"? Like I trust them with one red dime of my money!

I feel sorry for you that you don't know how to be civilized without government interference in your life.

I hold government as a whole
responsible and that includes all parties.  They are all greedy liars who just want to keep their seat and will say and do anything to draw followers in to get elected.  So this promise of change is not change at all.  It is the same political game that has been played since the very beginning.  They all suck.  I say we storm Washington with our pitch forks and torches and get all new people in office.  What say you?  LOL!
Who put faith in what government?
Who put faith in what government? I for one put NO faith in Bush from day one....he was a disastrous governor in the Lone Star, and I knew by the time he got finished with America and Americans, that we would barely be able to recognize it. You are right. The shrub did inherit at least something he should have been able to work with, but evidently it was beneath his pay grade to pay attention to such things since he had wars to wage.

Obama wants to restore a little balance...another thing the shrub monkeyed around with...especially his notorious distain for judicial powers and addiction to executive privilege. We need to take out that generic "government" reference and replace it with republicans failed us. The more power they get, the more they will fail us. Voters get that now.

Why are you lying? Obama wants stricter gun controls. He cannot take your precious guns away from you without a constitutional amendment. Defend yourselves against what? You really are a paranoid bunch, aren't you? Uh, oh....your argument just fell apart. So I ask again, can anybody explain Reagan's rambling incoherence?
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