Bottom line: Either way, WE lose. At least, if the bill
Posted By: see message on 2008-09-29
In Reply to: No sam, listen to me. I am only going to say...sm - oldtimer
doesn't pass until it strips the wall street & banking criminals of their ill-gotten gains, then EVERYONE will have to pay. But as the bill is currently written, WE have to pay. We're screwed, either say. Once this dies down a bit, I'm pulling every cent out of the stock market forever. I don't want my hard-earned savings, what little there is, going to making shysters rich.
GAME OVER!
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The bottom line is....
from 1870 to the 1960's the majority of elected Democrats in Congress, with the help of a small minority of southern Republicans, effectively denied African Americans the right to vote for 90 years FOLLOWING the civil war. If you are saying that seeking their freedom and giving them the right to vote is a "liberal" movement, then it was the Republicans in majority, not the Democrats in majority, who were the "liberals" of that time.
In my mind, we are all tied up in semantics. The passion and commitment to something that to each of us is morally right is not liberal nor conservative. It is a human characteristic. None of us, I suppose, are truly liberal or truly conservative. It is a mixture. Some "liberals" agree with me that abortion is morally wrong and are against it for that reason, yet still consider themselves liberals. Some "conservatives" (such as Guiliani) do not agree on abortion and are pro choice, yet still call themselves conservative. I made a comment on the conservative board regarding the fires in California and was accused of sounding like a "bleeding heart liberal." So, in essence, over time people have identified certain characteristics and tried to put them in a liberal or a conservative box. And because we are human, and because we are different and have different ideas, we do not fit into boxes and ideas cross over. Hence, no true liberals or true conservatives....and that fact does not bother me at all, though it does bother some.
It is just that some of us love the labels more than others, I guess; the labels make them feel good, like they are affiliated with something noble...and what the labels mean to us individually, and some get very angry if someone questions the label.
I guess my prefrence is not to be labeled.
And that is what it is...a label, in the grand scheme of things. Because no one can really agree on what it means. Everyone puts their own personal spin on it. That is the nature of the human condition.
Bottom line
Obama is going to win, that's what counts.
He must do something right, if the majority wants Barrack Obama.
bottom line...
After the attack of 9/11 something HAD TO BE DONE.
What other options were there?
Doing nothing was sure not an option.
That IS the bottom line...
That's the only reason it is being offshored. It has nothing to do with "free trade" and everything to do with corporate greed.
The bottom line is....(sm)
Torture does not provide reliable confessions.
Torture has not and will not "save American lives." If it has done anything, it has put more lives at risk.
Waterboarding was used in WWII against US personell by the Japanese. We prosecuted those who used torture and executed them. Why? Because it was against the law. And what did the Japanese get for their efforts with torturing? False information and a bad reputation. What makes you think we'll get anything different from that?
The only thing torture is good for is revenge. That's not what this country is about, and its not what I'm about.
Bottom line, Taiga....
did Murtha or did Murtha not say "The surge is working?" Yes, he did. Why did CBS choose not to print all the disclaimers? You got me, I don't know. As to Murtha adding the disclaimers, he probably suddenly remembered he is going to have to talk to Pelosi come Monday. I don't blame him, I would be backpedaling too. lol.
Okay. This is exhausting. Bottom line...
I did not say Teddy you are a liar. Nor will I. Only you know for sure if you are lying. And you have said ad nauseam you don't care what I think or say, so why do keep protesting so much? Sigh.
What I believe or do not believe does not matter at this point to anyone but me. I vote we stop whipping this dead horse.
Well said. That is the bottom line. I have already voted....sm
for Obama/Biden and am proud of my choice. No one should ever legislate what a women can do with her own body, or a man's for that matter, but abortion is the subject here. As is with everything in life, I believe we will all have to answer for all our choices throughout our lives. That is between you and your God. Abortion could definitely be dramatically reduced if there weren't so many barriers to education and birth control and less talk about the "welfare mother" when women do choose not to have an abortion. I think that the main problem is that people are very judgemental. I am old, and, overy the years, I have learned that the old saying "walk a mile in my shoes" before your judge me probably should be either one of the Constitutional Amendments or one of the Ten Commandments.
I think that when judgement day comes, God is going to ask me, what did you do for your fellow human beings out of the goodness of your heart that did not benefit you directly in any way. Did you love your neighbor (even your enemies) as yourself? Did you bear false witness against your neighbor and spread rumors, get down and dirty because of differences of opinion in an election or in your daily life? That is what I imagine God is going to ask me in a few years and I am thinking about how I am going to answer.
The bottom line is that he's not lying about it. It's just
z
Bottom line...are you in favor of infanticide? nm
nm
Bottom line....O will raise DH and my taxes, sorry, it's not for
those who are lazy. Try working hard for a change and not expecting the gov't to give you a handout for once. WAAAH, please pay for my healthcare, pay for my kid's college, help me out because I don't want to take responibility for myself, I would rather let the gov't do it all and then when it doesn;t work out, I can blame them too. When O wins I can't wait to see this board in a year with all the people complaining about the broken promises, higher taxes, etc. It will be worth the wait.
Bottom line, no one can renounce the citizenship...sm
of an American citizen, period, whether they are adopted by a noncitizen or not. Obama had the right to claim Nigerian citizenship at age 21 but did not.
Bottom line here. O does not claim to be messiah
Anybody who subscribes to such nonsense on any level whatsoever is the one who is confused.....VERY confused.
But, it did not happen with Clinton and that is the bottom line
Why, oh why do the people continue to uphold a president who has wound up at the bottom of the barrel as far as what kind of presidency he had. Very good riddance. Yes, we can.
So,. bottom line, I am European born
and I have proven that my grammar and spelling is better than yours.
Sometimes I make some typos, but last not least this is a froum and on this forum there is no 'typo police' applied, not even 'grammar and spelling police.'
Go and take your meds, I bet you swallow tens of those every day and night, and pray!
Bottom line...they made a 68 million dollar PROFIT.
PROFIT is AFTER expenses. So I am thinking they are doing pretty darn well, don't you? They are not in it for the goodness of their hearts.
And it says plainly on the website they will take checks for anything but abortions. So that says to me cash or credit card. IF there is another explanation for that, please share.
It has been awhile since there was a bombing or a shooting, and I don't condone either. Killing abortionists or bombing clinics is not the answer. Changing minds and providing alternatives is the answer. But going with the flow and remaining quiet while mass murder of the unborn goes on is something I cannot do, and sorry if I find it horrifying that PLanned Parenthood makes such a KILLING for killing. THere is THAT.
I just read the draft of the bill on line...
the lenders are getting the bailout all right, but there are provisions in the bill about letting people in foreclosure get "modifications" so they can keep their houses. We are essentially buying the bad mortgages from the lenders, we the taxpayers. And then those folks who got those mortgages they really didn't qualify for and could not afford to begin with...can try to pay it back, which in and of itself is not a bad thing...however, the rub is the "modifications." I don't disagree with modifying the interest rate to the average others are paying...but there is a thing there that says "reduction of loan principal" as one of the options. I think that is going too far. I think they should have to pay back every dime they borrowed no matter how long it takes...becaue of they don't, WE have to. Sigh.
I do agree. It was a lose/lose situation for him either way.
Very sad.
last line of Matthews piece cut off in error. 1 line sm
complained in a letter to his boss that Matthews had shown a pattern of sexism.
Actually, I answered your posts line by line
about not "allowing" you to have an opinion. Those are your words, not mine. This is a good example of how this discussion has escalated from a simple link to this utter squashed bug nonsense. Why are you not able to simply debate the original issue at hand...the Eric Holder appointment? Too much of an intellectual challenge when somebody presents a THIRD-PARTY alternative viewpoint? You are the one who mentioned losing sleep and I remarked that it was probably unnecessary since you were blowing something out of proportion....something you have been doing all afternoon. You takes things WAY too personally.
When Bill Clinton was in office, OHHH you better believe Bill and Carter have had..sm
their day of mudslinging matches, at the pleasure of a many conservatives. So, no there's not a double standard here.
Bill Maher Takes On Bill O'Reilly
BILL O'REILLY, HOST: In the "Personal Story" segment tonight, political humorist Bill Maher (search), he has a new book out called "New Rules: Polite Musings from a Timid Observer." Of course, Mr. Maher is about as polite as I am and as timid as Dracula. He joins us now from Los Angeles.
You know, you've had some celebrities on your HBO show, "Real Time," which begins again on Friday, talking about policy and war on terror and stuff like that. I get the feeling they don't know very much, but you do. So I'd like to make Bill Maher, right now, the terror czar. Bill Maher, the terror czar. Could be a series.
How would you fight this War on Terror? How would you fight it?
BILL MAHER, HOST, HBO'S "REAL TIME": I think the first and most important thing is to get the politics out of the War on Terror. You know, maybe I'm a cockeyed optimist, Bill, maybe I'm naive, but I thought that 9/11 was such a jarring event that nobody would dare return to business as usual on that one subject after that.
But of course, we found out that nothing could be further from the truth. And your president, my president too, but the one you voted for...
O'REILLY: You don't know that. Were you looking over my shoulder there? I could have voted for Nader. I could have voted for Kerry, but Kerry wouldn't come on the program, so I wouldn't vote. But I could have gone for Ralph. Ralph's a friend of mine.
MAHER: Yes. Anyway, I said the guy you voted for, President Bush, you know, how come this guy, who was supposed to be such a kick-and-take- names kind of guy, how come he has not been able to get the politics out of this?
You know, as a guy who's been accused of treason, I'll tell you what real treason is: Treason is when legislators vote against homeland security measures because it goes against the wishes of their political or financial backers. Treason is the fact that, as a terrorist, you could still buy a gun in this country because the NRA (search) lobby is so strong.
O'REILLY: OK. But you're getting into the political, and I agree with you. I think that the country should be united in trying to seek out and kill terrorists, who would kill us.
But I'd like to have some concrete things that you, Bill Maher, the terror czar — and take this seriously, this could be a series — what would you do?
All right, so you've got bin Laden. You've got Al Qaeda (search). You've got a bunch of other lower-level terrorist groups. What do you do to neutralize them?
MAHER: OK. Well, first of all, you discounted my answer, which is get the politics out, but OK.
O'REILLY: Well, assume you can do that. They're gone.
MAHER: We'll let that go. Keep going. I wouldn't worry that much about bin Laden. I mean, capturing bin Laden at this point, it doesn't really matter whether he's dead or alive. He's already Tupac to the people who care about him and work for him. Capturing bin Laden, killing him would be like when Ray Kroc died, how much that affected McDonald's.
O'REILLY: It would be a morale booster. But I understand. You're not going to send...
MAHER: A morale booster, right. Well, we've had plenty of morale boosting. We've had plenty of window dressing. What we need is concrete action.
In the book I wrote before this one about terrorism, I suggested that we have a Secret Service for the people. I said whenever the president goes anywhere, he has very high-level, intelligent detectives who look around at a crowd. They know what they're looking for. They're highly paid. They're highly trained.
We don't have that in this country. We should have that. We should have a cadre of 10,000 highly trained people who would guard all public events, bus stations, train stations, airports — and stop with this nonsense that this robotic sort of window dressing...
O'REILLY: OK, so you would create a homeland security office that was basically a security firm for major targets and things like that. It's not a bad idea. Costs a lot of money. Costs a lot of money. It's not a bad idea.
MAHER: Costs a lot of money compared to what? If you paid 10,000 people a salary of $100,000 a year, that would, I think, cost $10 billion or something. That's nothing. There's that much pork in the transportation bill before you get...
O'REILLY: Yes, 10,000 wouldn't do it, but I get your drift.
MAHER: Whatever it costs.
O’REILLY: You would create a super-security apparatus. OK, that's not bad. That's not bad. How about overseas now?
MAHER: What we need to do is what I call get Israeli about this. Because the Israelis are not afraid of profiling. The Israelis are not afraid to bury politics in the greater cause of protecting their nation. We don't act that way. You know, I'm afraid 9/11 really changed nothing.
O'REILLY: Boy, your ACLU (search) pals aren't going to like that. You're going to lose your membership card there.
MAHER: I'm not a member of the ACLU.
O'REILLY: Oh, sure you are, just like I voted for Bush. You're a member of the ACLU. I can see the card right in your pocket there.
MAHER: Bill, I'm not a joiner. I'm not a joiner. I don't like organizations.
O'REILLY: They won't have you, Maher, let's be honest about that. All right, now, in your book, which is very amusing, by the way — if you want a few laughs buy Maher's book.
MAHER: Thank you.
O'REILLY: You take some shots at FOX News, which is your wont, and I just want to know why you think we're so fabulously successful here.
MAHER: Well, I think that question has been answered many times. It's because the conservative viewer in this country, or on radio the conservative listener, is very predictable. They like to hear what they like to hear. They like to hear it over and over again.
O'REILLY: All the surveys show that the viewers are all over the map. They're not conservative in a big bloc. Some of them are moderate. Some of them are Democrats. Some of them are Moroccans. I mean, they're everywhere. That's your analysis? That just the conservatives watch us?
MAHER: Well, I think mostly the conservatives do watch you. That's not to take anything away from what you guys have achieved over there. It's a very well-produced broadcast, and they have excellent personalities like yourself, Bill. Who could resist watching you when you get home from work at night?
O'REILLY: Whoopi Goldberg, maybe? I don't know.
MAHER: Yes.
O'REILLY: Anyone who doesn't watch here is misguided. We identify them as such.
But look, I think there's more to it than — you're in TV. You know the ratings game. I mean, if you don't provide a product that is satisfying people, no matter what your ideology, they tell you to take a hike.
There's a guy over at MSNBC. He's a very conservative guy. He was hired and nobody's watching him. They hire liberals. Nobody watches them. Air America (search). Nobody's listening to it.
I mean, there's got to be a reason why we're No. 1, a punch line for you, and No. 2, you know, becoming the most powerful news network in the world.
MAHER: Well, I think, as I say, it's a well-produced product. You know, your program moves along, always at a clip that never seems to bore. You know, you move along to the next topic, the next guest. It never sort of drags. I don't think a lot of people know how to produce that stuff that way.
O'REILLY: All right. It's bells and whistles and my charming personality. That's what I thought it was.
Last thing: You know, one thing I like about Maher is he's not a hypocrite. He drives a little hybrid vehicle. Right? You putter around there. Does it have training wheels? What's it like?
MAHER: Actually, I had the Prius hybrid for three years. I was one of the first ones to get it right after 9/11. And I traded it in a few months ago for the Lexus hybrid.
O'REILLY: I think we should all cut back on our energy consumption, and I think we should all get these hybrids as fast as we can.
Hey, Bill, always nice to see you. Thanks very much. Good luck with the season on the TV show.
MAHER: Continued success there, Mr. No. 1.
O'REILLY: All right. Thank you.
Watch "The O'Reilly Factor" weeknights at 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. ET and listen to the "Radio Factor!"
Content and Programming Copyright 2005 Fox News Network, L.L.C. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, L.L.C.'s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.
Bill Clinton and his ties to India (yes, Bill),...
and China (yes, Bill) sent a lot of our jobs their way. Google it some time. Even I was amazed.
Look, it is simple economics. The big bad corporations everyone hates...first of all, it is not 5 or 6 rich guys and that's it. They employee thousands of people just like us...and when the government puts those huge taxes on them, if they want to stay in business, they are forced to move offshore. Higher taxes are responsible for more jobs going overseas than "greed." The DNC has told its members for years that "corporations" and "the rich" are the cause of all their problems and they have bought that Marxist rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. Corporations are not the cause of ill in this country. They are the backbone of the economy in this country. That is simple economics 101. And I am certainly not rich...and I certainly am not on the upper echelon of a corporation, but I do understand reality and I understand how the economy works. Yes, there is wrongdoing by some upper level folks in corporations. There is wrongdoing in the government. Where there is power, there will be wrongdoing. But for every Enron there are thousands of other good, solid companies that employ thousands of Americans, but the DNC does not share the success stories, because it does not promote their agenda. In order to control people they want them beholden to government and hating free enterprise. They want big government, total power, and control. And following Alinksy's program...you have to instill class warfare. You have to make corporations the enemy. You have to make classes envy the next rung up. Classic Marxist socialism. It is being played out in this country every day.
It is just that some of us have not bought the myth and jumped on the socialism train.
Did you read the bill? It was a regulatory reform bill...
asking them to regulate, not de-regulate. But Democrats blocked it...no wonder. Fannie was greasing a lot of Democratic palms...and Frederick Raines, the Dem CEO at the time...was in the Clinton administration. They were taking care of their own...and we are paying for it.
if abe is on the $5 bill & george is on the $1 bill, what is Obama on?
****censored****
I am not willing to lose what
I've earned through my hard work to give to some lazy bum who would rather mooch than work for a living. I'm not willing to lose my freedom. To me....it seems like government wants to take control over more things and when will it end.
I do not support our president because I do not believe his goals and agenda will help anyone who really needs the help. It will continue to enable moochers to keep on mooching. It will hurt charities by taxing the rich.....who, BTW, are the biggest donators to charities. It will hurt businesses by taxing them more and in turn they will cut back and lay off workers, not hire more employees. Cap and trade will hurt everyone as gas prices will sore, utility costs will sky rocket, and the price for all goods and services will go up. That doesn't help people who have to decide which is more imporant....gas to get to work or food to put on the table.
To stand by and let these things happen because we support our country and just have to see how things come together......to me that is just ignorant. That is how we ended up in this situation in the first place. We supported our country and put our trust in government (dems and pubs alike) and we ended up getting it stuck to us.
There are bottom feeders of all...
stripes, tis true, but we are talking about Coulter here. She also is an embarassment along the lines of Rush and O'Reilly. There are many conservative personalities who do not engage in outright cruelty directed towards specific individuals or groups.
Rush's new bottom.
I do not listen to Rush but I saw this on television and read it in the paper. Michael J. Fox has done a commercial for the democrat running in Missouri who is pro stem cell research. He is obviously having a really bad day or his Parkinson's has progressed since I last saw him. Anyway, Rush said that Fox was **acting,** flailing all over the place, that he knew Fox had Parkinson's but that he has never seen any symptoms of it before this political ad. He said Fox might have stopped taking his medication so that he would flail around more, but if not, then he was acting. Unfrigging believable. I have seen Fox unable to sit still or stop moving many many times even while taking medication over the years. I think he was diagnosed in 1994 so 12 years later he has probably deteriorated quite a bit. This just struck me as so mean-spirited. Knocking the homeless, the mentally ill, etc. is one thing, disgusting in my opinion, but to accuse a sick man of faking it is snake belly low. People in glass pill bottles should not throw stones.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart ...sm
for posting this, though I feel that it falls on deaf ears. Sadly the bigots and racists are still in denial. I am old and white and it is hard to pull the wool over my eyes too. I voted today for Obama/Biden. The going will be rough for whoever wins, but I have hope with Obama and I have not had this much hope in a long time.
try this one. Look at the table at the bottom
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/senator_obamas_four_tax_increa.html
The U.S. didn't lose.
We weren't allowed to win.
How many did you lose on Sept 11?
Probably none. I did. I still can hardly believe that they country I live in, have ALWAYS felt safe in and never, EVER thought anything like that would happen in...did. Don't you get it? It did. I for one do not ever, EVER want it to happen again. I'd give every dime I have and every dime I'll ever make to have those back that I lost.
Yes, investors have a lot to lose....
and investors are not just "the rich." Many companies' 401Ks for their employees are in the stock market. People should be VERY careful about what they think they want...the effects could be disastrous for an already weak economy.
here are a few if my candidates lose -
1. Get up Wed. AM, after election, turn on TV. See my faves didn't win. My reaction: 'Oh, cr@p!'
2. my actions: Eat cereal and drink coffee.
3. Where to go from thERE?
BACK TO BED!
4. What will I flee? My low-paying MT job, which most likely will never get any better.
Don't lose sleep over it
Win or lose, we'll be rebuilding the Republican party. That means purging the RINOs, too. That's more than can be said for the Dems.
I believe they lose a portion of their
social security. I agree that it is unfortunate and absurd that senior citizens are treated as they are. As far as her obit, that was the family. Could be they did not agree with the situation or had a problem with him. At least he was mentioned although it must have hurt him deeply. Long-time same sex partners are usually not mentioned at all.
they did not lose one person
They lost an entire generation and their children too probably. Can you say 529 no more?
Then on your list of bottom feeders
Don't forget Al Franken and Michael Moore just to name a few examples. Oh, and don't forget liberal internet columnist Deborah Frisch who told a conservative foe:
*if someone shot you and your 'tyke' it wouldn't slow me down one iota.' She also wrote that she hopes 'no one Jon-Benets' the child* -- a reference to the brutal murder of a young Colorado girl ten years ago -- and made disturbing sexual remarks about the boy. *I reiterate: If some nutcase kidnapped your child tomorrow and did to her what was done to…Jon-Benet Ramsey, I wouldn't give a damn.*
That is bottom feeding in all its glory. Ann may have a big mouth, but I don't think she's ever threatened to kill someone's kid and/or sexually abuse them.
i like the idea of starting at the bottom
giving the common people a break rather than sticking us from behind. I don't know what the monetary amount should be per mortgage. I heard Whoopi this morning throwing out the idea of 25% to the people who have taken out mortgages since 2003. One of the gals on the view also talked about these people who were given these loans that were very low interest at the beginning and then after a few years had the interest raised. Why can't the mortgage companies offer them a lower interest rate again? At least they would be getting something!! They are all greedy. I think the idea of bailing the mortgage companies out is disgusting. I realize people should never get in over their heads to begin with but these mortgage companies and any government official who had a hand in it were out for themselves, thinking in the end they were going to win..... no loss to them.... well guess what? they got a little too greedy and I think rather than slapping their little hands, THEY should be the ones to pay the price. I don't care if it's Rush's idea, Whoopi's, etc... How about for once our government listens to the PEOPLE of this country rather than looking out for their own butts.
tax cuts?? just look at the table at the bottom
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/senator_obamas_four_tax_increa.html
novelty VP choices always lose
Geraldine Ferraro. Gore and Lieberman, etc.
I agree with you. He/she should lose license. nm
.
Dang! 208 to 228 didn't lose by much (sm)
Both Suzy Orman and Jim Cramer were on the Today show and they thought it was a good deal which, I might add, surprised me.
I wonder what will happen now.
There goes my 401K!
Lose the "denial" accusation will ya.
x
Thinking that the democrats would lose is exactly, well....
Thanks for proving my point for me.
win or lose......it's not our place to intervene
we continually give Israel the very tools they use to give to terrorists groups who when the terrorists groups no longer do Israel's bidding, then Israel wants to turn on them. They may have good reason down the road but Israel needs to stop playing the terrorists like pieces on a chess board if they don't want them turning around decades down the road and turning on them.....
Let's lose the "teabagger" thing, okay?
X
where do you people come from? the bottom of the gene pool?
in anyway!!!
Geez. Well, just proved that the bottom of the barrel...
had not been reached until just now. What a nasty, sick comment.
Aren't we NOWat the bottom? How much lower can it get?
Therefore we need CHANGE.
'You don't seem to understand.' Favorite sentence of McCain addressing Obama.
IRS to Church: Support Iraq War or Lose Your
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-allsaints7nov07,0,592419,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Antiwar Sermon Brings IRS Warning
All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena risks losing its tax-exempt status because of a former rector's remarks in 2004.
By Patricia Ward Biederman and Jason Felch
Times Staff Writers
November 7, 2005
The Internal Revenue Service has warned one of Southern California's largest and most liberal churches that it is at risk of losing its tax-exempt status because of an antiwar sermon two days before the 2004 presidential election.
Rector J. Edwin Bacon of All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena told many congregants during morning services Sunday that a guest sermon by the church's former rector, the Rev. George F. Regas, on Oct. 31, 2004, had prompted a letter from the IRS.
In his sermon, Regas, who from the pulpit opposed both the Vietnam War and 1991's Gulf War, imagined Jesus participating in a political debate with then-candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry. Regas said that good people of profound faith could vote for either man, and did not tell parishioners whom to support.
But he criticized the war in Iraq, saying that Jesus would have told Bush, Mr. President, your doctrine of preemptive war is a failed doctrine. Forcibly changing the regime of an enemy that posed no imminent threat has led to disaster.
On June 9, the church received a letter from the IRS stating that a reasonable belief exists that you may not be tax-exempt as a church … The federal tax code prohibits tax-exempt organizations, including churches, from intervening in political campaigns and elections.
The letter went on to say that our concerns are based on a Nov. 1, 2004, newspaper article in the Los Angeles Times and a sermon presented at the All Saints Church discussed in the article.
The IRS cited The Times story's description of the sermon as a searing indictment of the Bush administration's policies in Iraq and noted that the sermon described tax cuts as inimical to the values of Jesus.
As Bacon spoke, 1984 Nobel Peace Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu, a co-celebrant of Sunday's Requiem Eucharist, looked on.
We are so careful at our church never to endorse a candidate, Bacon said in a later interview.
One of the strongest sermons I've ever given was against President Clinton's fraying of the social safety net.
Telephone calls to IRS officials in Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles were not returned.
On a day when churches throughout California took stands on both sides of Proposition 73, which would bar abortions for minors unless parents are notified, some at All Saints feared the politically active church had been singled out.
I think obviously we were a bit shocked and dismayed, said Bob Long, senior warden for the church's oversight board. We felt somewhat targeted.
Bacon said the church had retained the services of a Washington law firm with expertise in tax-exempt organizations.
And he told the congregation: It's important for everyone to understand that the IRS concerns are not supported by the facts.
After the initial inquiry, the church provided the IRS with a copy of all literature given out before the election and copies of its policies, Bacon said.
But the IRS recently informed the church that it was not satisfied by those materials, and would proceed with a formal examination. Soon after that, church officials decided to inform the congregation about the dispute.
In an October letter to the IRS, Marcus Owens, the church's tax attorney and a former head of the IRS tax-exempt section, said, It seems ludicrous to suggest that a pastor cannot preach about the value of promoting peace simply because the nation happens to be at war during an election season.
Owens said that an IRS audit team had recently offered the church a settlement during a face-to-face meeting.
They said if there was a confession of wrongdoing, they would not proceed to the exam stage. They would be willing not to revoke tax-exempt status if the church admitted intervening in an election.
The church declined the offer.
Long said Bacon is fond of saying it's a sin not to vote, but has never told anyone how to vote. We don't do that. We preach to people how to vote their values, the biblical principles.
Regas, who was rector of All Saints from 1967 to 1995, said in an interview that he was surprised by the IRS action and then I became suspicious, suspicious that they were going after a progressive church person.
Regas helped the current church leadership collect information for the IRS on his sermon and the church's policies on involvement in political campaigns.
Some congregants were upset that a sermon citing Jesus Christ's championing of peace and the poor was the occasion for an IRS probe.
I'm appalled, said 70-year-old Anne Thompson of Altadena, a professional singer who also makes vestments for the church.
In a government that leans so heavily on religious values, that they would pull a stunt like this, it makes me heartsick.
Joe Mirando, an engineer from Burbank, questioned whether the 3,500-member church would be under scrutiny if it were not known for its activism and its liberal stands on social issues.
The question is, is it politically motivated? he said. That's the underlying feeling of everyone here. I don't have enough information to make a decision, but there's a suspicion.
Bacon revealed the IRS investigation at both morning services. Until his announcement, the mood of the congregation had been solemn because the services remembered, by name, those associated with the church who had died since last All Saints Day.
Regas' 2004 sermon imagined how Jesus would admonish Bush and Kerry if he debated them. Regas never urged parishioners to vote for one candidate over the other, but he did say that he believes Jesus would oppose the war in Iraq, and that Jesus would be saddened by Bush's positions on the use and testing of nuclear weapons.
In the sermon, Regas said, President Bush has led us into war with Iraq as a response to terrorism. Yet I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq.'
Later, he had Jesus confront both Kerry and Bush: I will tell you what I think of your war: The sin at the heart of this war against Iraq is your belief that an American life is of more value than an Iraqi life. That an American child is more precious than an Iraqi baby. God loathes war.
If Jesus debated Bush and Kerry, Regas said, he would say to them, Why is so little mentioned about the poor?''
In his own voice, Regas said: ''The religious right has drowned out everyone else. Now the faith of Jesus has come to be known as pro-rich, pro-war and pro-American…. I'm not pro-abortion, but pro-choice. There is something vicious and violent about coercing a woman to carry to term an unwanted child.
When you go into the voting booth, Regas told the congregation, take with you all that you know about Jesus, the peacemaker. Take all that Jesus means to you. Then vote your deepest values.
Owens, the tax attorney, said he was surprised that the IRS is pursuing the case despite explicit statements by Regas that he was not trying to influence the congregation's vote.
I doubt it's politically motivated, Owens said. I think it is more a case of senior management at IRS not paying attention to what the rules are.
According to Owens, six years ago the IRS used to send about 20 such letters to churches a year. That number has increased sharply because of the agency's recent delegation of audit authority to agents on the front lines, he said.
He knew of two other churches, both critical of government policies, that had received similar letters, Owens said.
It's unclear how often the IRS raises questions about the tax-exempt status of churches.
While such action is rare, the IRS has at least once revoked the charitable designation of a church.
Shortly before the 1992 presidential election, a church in Binghamton, N.Y., ran advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy, and the tax agency ruled that the congregation could not retain its tax-exempt status because it had intervened in an election.
Bacon said he thought the IRS would eventually drop its case against All Saints.
It is a social action church, but not a politically partisan church, he said.
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