Again, you are skirting the major issues and the cost...
Posted By: Observer on 2007-10-26
In Reply to: This article is absolutely fabulous, - piglet
did you read all the France article? Their physicians make two-thirds less than ours...and why? Because there is no medical school tuition in France. Can you imagine what would happen to this country's quality of care if you made medical schools no tuition? Can you see Cornell Medical School, Harvard Medical School to name just two, schools who graduate the most brilliant minds in medicine...going to a no-tuition basis? How are they going to be able to train physicians with only government doled-out money to support them? The quality of physician in this country, followed rapidly by the quality of care would tank. If you come from academic medicine, ask those physicians how they feel about no tuition medical school and having their fees capped. Go ahead and ask them.
Our own socialized care is substandard. Articles every day about VA Hospitals and the deplorable conditions in many of them. Veterans having to wait weeks and months for appointments, etc. I know. I have seen the system at work. The government cannot oversee the socialized programs they have now. Medicare and Medicaid are both rife with waste and fraud. We all know this. Because the government cannot oversee them the way they should. And you want to extend this to every person in the US? Look at this reality-based. It is a fiasco in the making.
I am sure the Canadians and the UK thought it would be wonderful too. In the first months it may have been. However, things get skewed when the cost starts to catch up. That is when you end up with a population having over HALF their income taken off the top in taxes to feed the fatted calf. You will note that the article said France was considering taxing both earned and unearned income to feed THEIR calf. When that happens, ask the French how they feel about socialized medicine.
I don't know where you get that healthcare costs are driven by insurance companies. That is nuts. They don't set the fees doctors, clinics, drug companies, yada yada, charge. In fact, it was some of the organized insurance companies, like HMOs, who went to clinics, physicians, etc., to negotiate deals for their consumers...so that those clinics would accept a certain rate for their services. The clinics would agree to less than their normal fees in order to get the business of that HMO. That is the free market WORKING. The clinic I go to for my care, when I get a bill, the insurance company shows what they charged, what they paid, and in nice bold letters at the bottom it says that I am not responsible for the difference because the clinic agreed to that amount for that service, regardless of what their normal charge is.
So, yes, in a way insurance companies do drive health care...but in a good way in my case, and I am sure in other cases across this country, if people would just open their eyes and look.
What this appears to be, on the face of it, is that people just do not want to pay for their own insurance, they want to turn it into yet another entitlement...the biggest one ever. If they want to let the government control them to that extent...more power to them. These same people who want to give up their personal right to control their own health care are the same people that complain about civil liberties and wiretapping. Don't tap my phone, but go ahead and take my health care completely out of my hands as long as you pay for it I don't have to.
No thanks. I do not want to be tied to the government for my health care and I do not want them making my decisions for me. One thing leads to another and before long the government (or more specifically, the Democrats) have you tied to them for your every need. Then, my friends, they have you. You will be living in a socialist country. And if that looks good to you...look at Venezuela. Look at the disparity there between those in power and the "people." Look at Cuba. Look at what socialist Germany turned into before World War II. Please look at history, folks. Socialism always evolves into a dictatorship. Always. Because once they have you dependent upon them for your every need...all I am saying is be careful what you ask for.
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Not skirting the major issues
It is just that our major issues differ immensely.
1. I did read the article, and many more besides. I did not state implicitly that we should model our healthcare system identical to France or Canada, it was only meant to represent that healthcare reform can work, that it is needed in this country, and that for the average individual to start seriously looking at it. There are great programs out there and there is absolutely no reason why we cannot take the best of them and create a whole new better system.
2. Yes, there will be some physicians who do not like the change, just as there will be citizens who do not like the change. However, stating that they will not be willing to take a pay cut for the greater good of their patients is very narrow minded. I helped recruit them to work in academic medicine and the VA system and never had a shortage of as you put it "the most brilliant minds of medicine" applying for those positions when they could have very easily went into the private sector for more money. Furthermore, stating that if there were free tuition based medical schools, that the quality of our physicians would go down is an absolutely ignorant statement to make. I cannot begin to fathom that line of thinking. In those countries where tuition is either free based or fully reimbursed are creating a large percentage of "the most brilliant minds of medicine".
3. I never stated that socialized healthcare is not fraught with problems. Our healthcare system is fraught with just as many. You cannot argue the statistics that in those countries where there is socialized healthcare, the citizens themselves are satisfied with it. I believe the latest statistics are 78% of French citizens are satisified. Granted there are issues on the table now in France, but many are stating that is because there is a creeping privatisation that is to be blamed. My relatives in Montreal have no complaints, and they are the average middle class citizens. And there is a very small percentage who are falling through the cracks compared to much more of your fellow Americans who are falling through our cracks.
5. Insurance companies are driving are healthcare whether you chose to believe it or not. Right now all across the United States there are insurance representatives walking the halls, looking through your patient records, deciding on the spot whether it is feasible for you to receive certain treatment or to stay an extra day, in which your physician will have to argue to ensure that you, the patient, is receiving the best care that he/she feels you deserve. But because the money is not coming out of your pocket, who is to care right?
6. And last but not least, to make the leap that socialized medicine will lead to socialized government is ludicrous. All I can say is what?
Hon, I'm a political major and history major...
xx
george will a major, major
conservative with vast influence for years and years. Can't minimize this devastating blow no matter how much you try to defect subject to joe biden.
Issues people, issues. I need issues
I'm not seeing any discussion about issues. Can we stick to the issues. Jeeze - I want to hear good and bad about both candidates but with facts to back whatever is being said.
P-L-E-A-S-E.....I want issues. How can I make any kind of determinatons about who I'm going to vote for if I don't hear about the issues. Reading some of this I'm thinking I'd get more truth if I read the National Enquirer.
we have had 4 major
catastrophes in the last 8 years due to republican/conservative ideology of little to no government. 911, katrina, iraq war, wall street collapse, etc. We have serious issues to deal with now. Symbols can wait for the return of the good times under democratic LEADERSHIP.
Yes, there will be major job losses now /NM
N/M
One major question for you about your post...sm
Where is the $250M that O wants to put out coming from? and the $500 he plans to give away?? Oh, I know...he'll just have the Treasury print more money. You need to seriously read more than Wikipedia. Try the IRS filings for starters. If O is elected, we are in for an even more slippery slope for our government.
The major difference between Christians and...
radical Islam is free choice...it is your choice whether or not to accept Christ...we do not chop off heads. THAT is my way or the highway.
Not just my job, DH is the major earner. We shouldn't be.
penalized for working hard.
obama is ahead in all major
polls. Sympathy not required.
You will be glad they are there if we have a major attack...
like a gas attack, a major bombing, dirty bomb, etc. They are trained to handle that situation. The National Guard is not...hence what happened at Kent State. If you would prefer, lobby your congress to have your national guard trained to do this RATHER than the army. Did you ever stop and think this is yet another deterrent to any terrorists who might think about attacking us again? They have faced our military and our military put them on the run. I think it is a great idea. The army are not a bunch drooling bully wingnuts out to strip your civil liberties. They are trying to PROTECT your rights and your physical personf or that matter. They are invested in protecting this nation. they are better equipped to do that than the national guard is.
It sure does, rightly so; here is the major difference I am seeing....sm
Those of us with the temerity to criticize the Bush years and doctrine are met with blind, sickening loyalty, more total denial than a stadium full of junkies, and this is after watching the last 8 years!....Now a new man comes in, yes young, yes not as experienced as I personally wanted, but with new ideas, because all the past doctrines were so tragic and poisonous to the country, and BEFORE HE EVEN TAKES OFFICE or can even get ANYTHING off the ground, he is being criticized and maligned daily here.....heck, many people here have magic crystals balls and keep telling us to watch the doomsday that is about to happen. Now, a wise person can learn from the past, but how can you not call it blind partisanship when Pubs here just keep singing the praises of King George II and dooming the new President and his entire FUTURE legacy?
Right. Isn't his what major Bloomberg in New York was doing?
And now he is running for his 3rd term!
Is also against the Constitution.
Right. Isn't his what major Bloomberg in New York was doing?
And now he is running for his 3rd term!
It was reported on all the major news
All I have do to know what will be posted on this form is watch Fox commentators and read a few conservative websites. All some of you do is regurgitate the half-truths and out-right lies spoon fed to you by people with an agenda. Think for yourselves once in a while.
34 major scandals during bush's first term
34 Major Scandals during Bush's first term:
I've got some major gas here - everyone stand back.
x
Where should president be while major US city drowns?
nm
She has a major superiority complex, doesn't she?
Pathetic, actually.
NO! Major corporate & CEO greed & mismanagement
Same thing happened to Mervyn's Dept. Stores... greedy big company bought them up, then ran them into the ground. They were great stores, too.
No tears shed here for the corporate shake-outs going on in many industries: Auto, financial, stock market, power, etc. I just hope they eventually grab the HEALTH CARE industry by the scruff of the neck and give it a good shaking, as well. NO PITY HERE.
I think a major issue people ignore...(sm)
is why we are a target of terrorism. US policies towards the middle east thus far have been nothing less than selfish. What US news doesn't tell you about is how these policies actually affect people living there, and more often than not it is devastating. That is where it began.
Granted, regardless of how we got here, we're in the middle of it right now and actions should be taken, but not actions like those that have been taken by the Bush administration. The prisoners at Gitmo are a prime example. They should have tried these people to see if they even needed to be there instead of holding them with no charges and torturing them. The ones who are guilty should have gone through the legal system and suffered the consequences whether it be death or imprisonment.
Here's what I see. We went into Iraq on false pretenses about WMDs. We found that to be false, so the cause was changed to saving the people of Iraq from a dictator -- a brutal dictator at that. We were supposed to be providing them with democracy. So, what do you think the Iraqi people think of us now? Have we killed as many people as Saddam did yet? Have we tortured people just like Saddam did? Yes. So, in their eyes, if this is now democracy, how much better is it than what they started out with?
If we are to set the standard by which other democracies use as a guideline, we need to get it right, and that includes respecting the culture, religion and social norms of other countries instead of trying to make them into something they are not.
I think a major issue people ignore...(sm)
is why we are a target of terrorism. US policies towards the middle east thus far have been nothing less than selfish. What US news doesn't tell you about is how these policies actually affect people living there, and more often than not it is devastating. That is where it began.
Granted, regardless of how we got here, we're in the middle of it right now and actions should be taken, but not actions like those that have been taken by the Bush administration. The prisoners at Gitmo are a prime example. They should have tried these people to see if they even needed to be there instead of holding them with no charges and torturing them. The ones who are guilty should have gone through the legal system and suffered the consequences whether it be death or imprisonment.
Here's what I see. We went into Iraq on false pretenses about WMDs. We found that to be false, so the cause was changed to saving the people of Iraq from a dictator -- a brutal dictator at that. We were supposed to be providing them with democracy. So, what do you think the Iraqi people think of us now? Have we killed as many people as Saddam did yet? Have we tortured people just like Saddam did? Yes. So, in their eyes, if this is now democracy, how much better is it than what they started out with?
If we are to set the standard by which other democracies use as a guideline, we need to get it right, and that includes respecting the culture, religion and social norms of other countries instead of trying to make them into something they are not.
Another note: You are saying that terror should be met with like force. So, should Bush be waterboarded?
Not very cost effective, is it? nm
x
The boxes only cost about $75.... sm
and as the poster above said, this has been in the offing for some time now. Surely, if a person can afford a television, they could afford a box.... Even if they have to save up for it. What about when all the analog televisions have been converted? They are no longer making analog televisions, so the jobs in this field would go bye-bye.
What would cost more in the long
The government astronomically increasing the deficit -or- the government doing nothing our nation nosediving into economic collapse?
Yes, our taxes will increase, as will our children's and probably, at least for some of us, our grandchildren's. But the alternative is far more dire.
Frankly, I don't know if what the feds have done (during both administrations) was the right thing to do. Even the economists can't agree. Some say it was ill-advised, some say it was misdirected, some say it was too much, others say it was not enough. I am just glad that, for the moment at least, I have a roof over my head and do not have to stand in a soup line. The future? Who knows?
It may have cost her this crown........... sm
but it may have preserved her other one! I, for one, am glad to see a Christian standing up for her beliefs in the face of being unpopular and losing something that is important to her.
I think it did cost her the crown
I heard that Perez gave her zero points for her answer. If he was being at all fair, she would have gotten something for her answer; it was a good answer, and her opinion, but he didn't agree with it.
She was in the lead before this question, so yes, I believe it did.
What with the rise in the cost of living....(sm)
its hard to make it on just $169,300 a year.....ROFL...they should try working with my budget.
How much does it cost to throw a party?
Look, I don't care if Obama's inaugaration party is costing 21 million, but in the light of where our economy is right now, do you think it's a good idea? I mean, can't you have a good party for around 10 million? This is NOT a political question. I'm not attacking Obama, it's more of an economic question.
Nothing is very cost effective and now i heard
they want to up the ethanol production by 12%....so that means higher corn prices again next year.
and of course, the speculators are currently driving up the cost, again.....
All the more reason to institute Picken's Plan..........there
and of course, the speculators are currently driving up the cost, again.....
All the more reason to institute Picken's Plan..........there isn't
We don't know if the answer cost her the crown.
There were apparently either 10 or 12 judges, each of whom rated each candidate in the final round as "1 through 5". Depending on the margin she lost by, and how her answer figured in each judge's assessment, the answer may very well have cost her the crown - or not. We simply do not know without seeing the score cards and also finding out from each judge how her answer figured into their decisions.
This does not cost anything. Just pick a card and a message...sm
Or even type your own message and Xerox handles the mailing. This is neat.
And do you know why the cost of living for the middle class has gone down...?
because we are being taxed to death. The amount of our income off the top for taxes has increased over all those years. More programs to help the "poor," some of which have moved people from what used to be middle class to the "poor class" to get on some of those social programs...which is never a good thing...and meanwhile the working middle class continues to get the tax shaft. Yeah, we are being had...by those who want to spend, tax, spend, tax, spend....
Read the article...it says it all there cost of bed and electricity...nm
Palin is a fraud....
lol
I agree....cost and insurance practices DO...
need overhaul. And McCain has good ideas to take care of that, called competition. Making all insurance available in all parts of the country is a start...so no monopolies in certain parts of the country. Now there are some really great plans, trouble is, not available everywhere in the country. McCain thinks if you offer a policy, you offer it everywhere, if you are a national company. Insurance companies, if they toe the line, can help control costs, just like they do in certain parts of the country where physicians will take whatever the insurane company is willing to pay. If they are made to compete nationally prices will have to come down. That is what competitive market does. And rather than having the government muck around in it, McCain is just going to give a tax credit $2500 individual and $5000 family to help pay premiums. That is pretty significant, and no strings attached. You still make your own health care decisions. And that works for me.
Keating 5 cost taxpayers $125 billion.
x
Fannie/Freddie going to cost 7 billion...
if we are lucky.
O's alleged ties will cost money plus a lot more...nm
nm
I guess McCain's hairdos don't cost much. LOL
x
NYT ad alone cost $200,000 in taxpayer funds. Not a big deal?nm
z
If bridge builders cannot afford the cost........ sm
of a movie ticket, then what good does it do to provide/create more jobs in that genre?
Folks are hurting and they can't afford their own homes, much less movie tickets and popcorn. I say let the movie industry take a little pay cut here and there and bring their multimillion dollar projects down to a more reasonable figure and bring the films in under budget.
Do you mean because we can figure on 500% cost overruns on all these projects? sm
I use the interstate. After all, I have to visit my vast real estate holdings scattered hither and thither around the state. Us wealthy folks are like that.
Now, I just checked with my chauffeur as to his opinion. "Wigweevil", I said. "Wigweevil, tell me. How is the state of the interstate in your opinion? And take off that cap while you're inside the mansion!"
"Sire", said Wigweevil (he pretends he lives in feudal England). "Sire, what do you mean by the state of the interstate?"
"Well, you know, Wigweevil. That road thingie that runs from one village to the next. Is the concrete, or mortar or whatever you call it. Is it all there? No yawning caverns? And the bridges - not too wobbly, I trust?"
"No, sire. The asphalt or macadam is entirely intact and the bridges seem trustworthy."
"I see, Wigweevil. That greatly relieves my mind. How about animals? No vast herds of buffalo wandering about on the asphalt or macadam? No dodging around charging rhinocerussusses? Everything in order along those lines?"
"Quite, sire."
"Very good, Wigweevil. Well, I am hearing that the interstate is becoming a veritable wilderness, so I want you to put the elephant gun in the car against the eventuality of rhinocerusseses in the future. And you might throw my water wings in the trunk in case a bridge collapses and throws us into the drink. That is all, Wigweevil."
"Very good, sire."
The health care plan cost so far
is about $1 Trillion, and yes, it will be covered by taxes again. I don't think it's 4 pages, either. It's more like another 1000 pages. I made a note to look it up, but can't today.
The cost of S-CHIP for an entire year equals
Iraq = $333 million per day. S-CHIP = $19 million per day. Hmm, if we can "find" money for one, don't you think we can find money for the other. Again, I ask, "What would Jesus do?" What would the leaders of any religion recommend? I think they would recommend taking care of our most innocent souls.
The cigarette tax would go a long way in covering the program, but I think our government could come up with money to fund the rest.
Correction: The cost to cover Montana kids.
.
voice mail doesn't cost anything - but I hate it
I cannot stand having to pick up my phone, hear a beep, beep, beep, then dial into the phone company, then dial my telephone number, then dial my password. Too much of a hassle for me. So it was free but what a waste of my time.
Voice mail doesn't cost anything? Crapola. My
phone company must be run by dems! I pay to have my phone company's voice mail, line item every month of my bundled services.
I'm not so lazy it bothers me to dial in and get my messages. Public mindset says, "give it to me without any effort, any cost to me, and let others pay for it." Private sector mindset says, "let me dial in, I'll pay for it, and when I can't, I'll discontinue the service."
No hassle to me says I can delete what I don't want to hear. Picking up a handset is better than picking up a welfare check.
Yes - a bean-counter will decide that the cost-benefit ratio over the expected remaining life span..
...isn't worth it, and you'll be denied that hip replacement or whatever. So much less expensive to prop you up in a wheelchair and shove you in a corner. They'll poke you tomorrow morning to see if you're dead yet.
And, folks, I'm not kidding.
FEMA needs a major overhaul...Doctor says FEMA ordered him to stop treating hurricane victims.
Doctor says FEMA ordered him to stop treating hurricane victims
By LAURIE SMITH ANDERSON landerson@theadvocate.com
Advocate staff writer
In the midst of administering chest compressions to a dying woman several days after Hurricane Katrina struck, Dr. Mark N. Perlmutter was ordered to stop by a federal official because he wasn't registered with the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
I begged him to let me continue, said Perlmutter, who left his home and practice as an orthopedic surgeon in Pennsylvania to come to Louisiana and volunteer to care for hurricane victims. People were dying, and I was the only doctor on the tarmac (at the Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport) where scores of nonresponsive patients lay on stretchers. Two patients died in front of me.
I showed him (the U.S. Coast Guard official in charge) my medical credentials. I had tried to get through to FEMA for 12 hours the day before and finally gave up. I asked him to let me stay until I was replaced by another doctor, but he refused. He said he was afraid of being sued. I informed him about the Good Samaritan laws and asked him if he was willing to let people die so the government wouldn't be sued, but he would not back down. I had to leave.
FEMA issued a formal response to Perlmutter's story, acknowledging that the agency does not use voluntary physicians.
We have a cadre of physicians of our own, FEMA spokesman Kim Pease said Thursday. They are the National Disaster Medical Team. ... The voluntary doctor was not a credentialed FEMA physician and, thus, was subject to law enforcement rules in a disaster area.
A Coast Guard spokesman said he was looking into the incident but was not able to confirm it.
Perlmutter, Dr. Clark Gerhart and medical student Alison Torrens flew into Baton Rouge on a private jet loaned by a Pennsylvania businessman several days after Katrina hit. They brought medicine and supplies with them. They stayed the first night in Baton Rouge and persuaded an Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot to fly them into New Orleans the next day.
I was going to make it happen, the orthopedic surgeon said. I was at Ground Zero too, and I had to lie to get in there.
At the triage area in the New Orleans airport, Perlmutter was successful in getting FEMA to accept the insulin and morphine he had brought. The pharmacist told us they were completely out of insulin and our donation would save numerous lives. Still, I felt we were the most-valuable resource, and we were sent away.
Gerhart said the scene they confronted at the airport was one of hundreds of people lying on the ground, many soaked in their own urine and feces, some coding (dying) before our eyes. FEMA workers initially seemed glad for help and asked Gerhart to work inside the terminal and Perlmutter to work out on the tarmac. They were told only a single obstetrician had been on call at the site for the past 24 hours.
Then, the Coast Guard official informed the group that he could not credential them or guarantee tort coverage and that they should return to Baton Rouge. That shocked me, that those would be his concerns in a time of emergency, Gerhart said.
Transported back to Baton Rouge, Perlmutter's frustrated group went to state health officials who finally got them certified -- a simple process that took only a few seconds.
I found numerous other doctors in Baton Rouge waiting to be assigned and others who were sent away, and there was no shortage of need, he said.
Perlmutter spent some time at the Department of Health and Hospital's operational center at Jimmy Swaggart Ministries before moving to the makeshift Kmart Hospital doctors established at an abandoned store to care for patients. After organizing an orthopedics room and setting up ventilators there, Perlmutter went back to the Swaggart Center and then to the LSU Pete Maravich Assembly Center's field hospital to care for patients being flown in from the New Orleans area.
We saw elderly patients who had been off their medicine for days, diabetics without insulin going into shock, uncontrolled hypertension, patients with psychosis and other mental disorders, lots of diarrhea, dehydration and things you would expect. I slept on a patient cot there every night until I came home.
Gerhart said he felt the experience overall was successful and rewarding, although frustrating at times. You don't expect catastrophes to be well organized. A lot of people, both private citizens and government officials, were working very hard.
Perlmutter did not return home empty-handed. He brought a family of four evacuees back with him and is still working with Baton Rouge volunteer Hollis Barry to facilitate the relocation of additional hurricane victims to Pennsylvania.
He also returned with a sense of outrage. I have been trying to call Sen. Arlen Specter (of Pennsylvania) to let him know of our experience.
I have been going to Ecuador and Mexico (on medical missions) for 14 years. I was at ground zero. I've seen hundreds of people die. This was different because we knew the hurricane was coming. FEMA showed up late and then rejected help for the sake of organization. They put form before function, and people died.
Both FEMA and the Coast Guard operate under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, which has been widely criticized for its disjointed, slow response to the devastation caused by Katrina. Federal officials are urging medical personnel who want to volunteer to help with disaster relief to contact the Medical Reserve Corps or the American Red Cross for registration, training and organization.
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