2000 dead: How many is
Posted By: too many? - sm - Starcat on 2005-11-17
In Reply to:
2000 Dead: How Many Is Too Many?
By Mike Hoffman
When I left for the Middle East in February 2003 with a Marine artillery unit, I was told Iraq was in possession of weapons of mass destruction, had been assisting Al Qaeda, was partly responsible for 9/11 and was an imminent threat to the United States and Iraq’s neighbors.
We destroyed Iraq’s under-equipped and demoralized military – the imminent threat to our nation -- in a little over a month. Since the invasion, no weapons inspection team has found evidence of any weapons of mass destruction and the claims that Saddam Hussein was working with Al Qaeda have been shown to be nonsense. When I left Iraq for home in May 2003, after President Bush told us “Mission Accomplished,” 139 Americans had died.
After the invasion was over and the occupation began, Iraqis didn’t throw flowers and candy at our feet. Instead roadside bombs and ambushes awaited us down every street. The administration said we were about to turn a corner. We were told that once Saddam and his sons were captured or killed the insurgents would give up, demoralized by the loss of their leader; peace would reign. By the time Saddam was captured in December 2003, 463 Americans had died in Iraq.
The capture of Saddam had no effect, and daily attacks against American forces and Iraqi security forces continued. It was during this time that the bloody Shiite Rebellion occurred. This was some of the fiercest fighting yet in Iraq. Even with this rebellion happening, we were told there was still hope. Sovereignty would soon be handed over to the Iraqis and another corner would be turned. But we needed to stay and provide the Iraqis security until we could “officially” turn the country back over to them. This would empower the Iraqis and end the Insurgency. By then, June 2004, 958 had come home in boxes.
Most Iraqis didn’t seem to care they had sovereignty, since we still occupied their country. They were still without electricity and faced an average unemployment rate of 70%. Every time US soldiers walked outside the wire they were still taking their lives in their hands. Then, we were told, elections would fix this. The Iraqis would have their own government in place and begin drafting a constitution. This would demoralize the terrorists and end the fighting. On the day of the elections, January 30, 2005, the U.S. death toll was 1,537.
What’s wrong with this picture?
The first time we were told the war was over we had lost 139 American; now we have lost 2,000 American lives in Iraq. Time and time again we are told things are getting better, that we have “turned a corner.”
In the Viet Nam War we didn’t “turn corners;” instead policy makers talked about the “light at the end of the tunnel.” We know now that by 1968 President Johnson knew there was no light at the end of the tunnel; he knew his war was lost. The Pentagon Papers showed this; Robert McNamara admits it today. Over 22,000 American troops died in Viet Nam after 1968 in a war our leaders knew was hopeless and just piling up American and Asian bodies.
Again, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and we’ve turned so many corners we’re going in circles. Our leaders know they can’t win this war, but, like Johnson and McNamara, they refuse to admit it to the American people. Meanwhile, our troops remain a huge provocative force in the region and each individual soldier a prized target. Failure to face this reality is exacerbating the current chaos in Iraq and preventing real regional diplomatic solutions.
So the question falls to ordinary Americans: How many more brave men and women are we willing to sacrifice before we force our leaders to bring the troops home? I pray that it does not take another 56,000 like it did in Viet Nam.
Mike Hoffman was a lance corporal in a Marine artillery unit during the invasion of Iraq. He is a member of Iraq Veterans Against The War.
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It's better off dead than dead AND rude and OBNOXIOUS.
Please respect the monitor's rules, even though you think they're stupid.
2000 election
Yes, Bush did win only one election. The first election was handed to him by the Supreme Court Five. If it had been handled properly and fairly, Gore would have won as he had the popular vote.
2000 yrs ago? Try 6000....
not looking for any kind of attention - you are awfully presuming/assuming for a public board/forum poster....you know nothing about me...
please do not respond to any of my posts if you don't like them - you DO have that choice.
I have never been called since 2000
to be included in a national poll. I'm Democrat. I answer all phone calls JUST to have my voice heard. Why haven't they called me?
Stolen, just like in 2000
I guess it is alright if the Republicans steal an election, but not the Dems???
The $2000 debit card sm
has provisions that state the card cannot be used for alcohol or cigarettes. They will get no cash back on any purchase.
The government has already thought of all these things. The card can only be used for food, personal items, etc.
I can't believe it matters. 2000 or 6000, what's... sm
The difference? It's still an ancient piece of fiction written by primitive, superstitious people from a corner of a long-dead empire. Why anyone in the present day would chose to believe any of it, let alone feel compelled to organize their life around it (or believe that it predicts the future, of all things!) is beyond me.
Here is the lastest immigration law, 2000. sm
http://www.aca.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=80
Then you'll just have to do what the dems did since 2000
Suck it up, tune him out and go on about your business.
Then you'll just have to do what the dems did since 2000
Suck it up, tune him out and go on about your business. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.
Another look at the 2000 Bush v. Gore debate.
I wonder if Bush would still have won if voters knew the extent to which he blatantly lied during this debate. To find the TRUTH, all someone has to do is take just about EVERYTHING Bush said, REVERSE IT (with the possible exception of the comment: "I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place." I didn't understand it in 2000 and still don't know what it means. And why did he only focus on "our friends in the Middle East?") I know this isn’t new news, but I found it interesting to take a second look at this. Hindsight being 20/20, I'm amazed at how good Gore is suddenly starting to look!
From www.debates.org/pages/trans2000a.html
MODERATOR: New question. How would you go about as president deciding when it was in the national interest to use U.S. force, generally?
BUSH: Well, if it's in our vital national interest, and that means whether our territory is threatened or people could be harmed, whether or not the alliances are -- our defense alliances are threatened, whether or not our friends in the Middle East are threatened. That would be a time to seriously consider the use of force. Secondly, whether or not the mission was clear. Whether or not it was a clear understanding as to what the mission would be. Thirdly, whether or not we were prepared and trained to win. Whether or not our forces were of high morale and high standing and well-equipped. And finally, whether or not there was an exit strategy. I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. So I would take my responsibility seriously. And it starts with making sure we rebuild our military power. Morale in today's military is too low. We're having trouble meeting recruiting goals. We met the goals this year, but in the previous years we have not met recruiting goals. Some of our troops are not well-equipped. I believe we're overextended in too many places. And therefore I want to rebuild the military power. It starts with a billion dollar pay raise for the men and women who wear the uniform. A billion dollars more than the president recently signed into law. It's to make sure our troops are well-housed and well-equipped. Bonus plans to keep some of our high-skilled folks in the services and a commander in chief that sets the mission to fight and win war and prevent war from happening in the first place.
MODERATOR: Vice President Gore, one minute.
GORE: I want to make it clear, our military is the strongest, best-trained, best-equipped, best-led fighting force in the world and in the history of the world. Nobody should have any doubt about that, least of all our adversaries or potential adversaries. If you entrust me with the presidency, I will do whatever is necessary in order to make sure our forces stay the strongest in the world. In fact, in my ten-year budget proposal I've set aside more than twice as much for this purpose as Governor Bush has in his proposal. Now, I think we should be reluctant to get involved in someplace in a foreign country. But if our national security is at stake, if we have allies, if we've tried every other course, if we're sure military action will succeed, and if the costs are proportionate to the benefits, we should get involved. Now, just because we don't want to get involved everywhere doesn't mean we should back off anywhere it comes up. I disagree with the proposal that maybe only when oil supplies are at stake that our national security is at risk. I think that there are situations like in Bosnia or Kosovo where there's a genocide, where our national security is at stake there.
BUSH: I agree our military is the strongest in the world today, that's not the question. The question is will it be the strongest in the years to come? Everywhere I go on the campaign trail I see moms and dads whose son or daughter may wear the uniform and they tell me about how discouraged their son or daughter may be. A recent poll was taken among 1,000 enlisted personnel, as well as officers, over half of whom will leave the service when their time of enlistment is up. The captains are leaving the service. There is a problem. And it's going to require a new commander in chief to rebuild the military power. I was honored to be flanked by Colin Powell and General Norman Schwartzkopf recently stood by me side and agreed with me. If we don't have a clear vision of the military, if we don't stop extending our troops all around the world and nation building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road, and I'm going to prevent that. I'm going to rebuild our military power. It's one of the major priorities of my administration.
I just hope we don't have a repeat of the 2000 election...sm
Whoever wins, let them win by a wide enough margin that the is no question. To this day I do not know how Bush et AL got away with that one. Talk about stupid democrats!
By trying to address 2000 and 2004 election corruption
nm
Pot meets kettle. You mean like Tom Delay's 2000-2001
We are still dealing with the aftermath. But hey, he was just trying to help out the shrub and the rest of the GOP good ole boys.
This person was talking about the 2000 debit cards and calling them handouts...sm
Now is not the time to be talking about handups in the midst of a national disaster like the one in NO. In a time like this it is too late for that and inappropriate. But enlighten me, what kind of handup has the republican party offered the displaced NO citizens?
These people NEED HANDOUTS AND YESTERDAY, until they can regain some type of normal existence and then handups would be good. Some people can't stand to see a person get anything. I've learned that's just how some people are. Even though they are cush in front of their computers posting away, they think if I'm not getting 2000 dollars from the government neither should they. And then there's the, I got mine croud. They feel that these people should have educated themselves, worked harder and they wouldn't be in this position, so let em' stay in the astrodome until they can figure something out.
I don't agree and think these compasionate conservative Christians who think this way should ask themselves WWJD?
rhetoric rhetoric - just tell people what they want to hear, it worked in 2000 and 2004 right?
xx
Any problem with 300,000 dead due to another lie?
Clinton lie: Shameful, tsk tsk.
Bush/Rove lies: Massive death and destruction and maiming, depleted uranium poisoning of an entire nation and generations to come, collapse of the only secular nation in the region which is now heading for a fundamentalist Islamic regime. We could go on for pages.
Now come on, get real. How can you even compare the two? It's just absurd. And none of this ooh you can't PROVE he lied! The proof was provided by the Downing Street memos if you want hard copy, and thousands of other sources if you'd just open your eyes and look at/hear them and use some common sense. Just look at where this war has gone for all the proof you need.
Sheez almighty, after what this administration has done to America and the rest of the world, and there are still people harping about Clinton's dirty little lie that harmed no one and would never have even been a public event if not for the entire frame-up for which the Wrong Right was responsible in the first place. You don't think they have their own dirty little secrets? Please. Their vendetta wasn't righteous, it was the highest form of stinking hypocrisy the American public has ever had forced down their throats.
pssst....two more words....BASE CLOSINGS. Remember when gutting the military was the battle scream of the day? Oooh, you hated him for that! What a scoundrel, presiding over a few base closures during peacetime (on schedule with the plan REAGAN devised, and argued for by Cheney).Now they tell you in the midst of the largest round of base closings ever in the history of America - during wartime!!! - that it's streamlining. It's all good. Just part of the Wrong Right legacy of telling you when to be enraged and when to smile and nod.
wishing you dead? Me?
Sweetie, I dont want anyone dead and I mourn the dead in the gulf due to our governments inactivity..I dont wish you dead, I wish no one dead..I want us all to be happy and one as a nation and world..I want happiness, I want peace, I want contentment..However, if you attack me personally, I most certainly will stand my ground..because I am not a fool.
Fox is #1 among the BRAIN DEAD
LOL - studies have proven FOX viewers to be significantly LESS informed about current events than ANY of the other networks (though they are all back)...
FOX tells the brain-dead WHAT THEY WANT to hear -
THEY DISTORT, YOU REPEAT.
Hey, I think I hear Bill O'LIEly calling you!
NOT DEAD, NOT COLD JUST
tired of watching you run around making up jobs for yourself and causes that you can't do anything about in a way that will cause change. Why are you so certain that our soldiers are bad? What makes you so sure those children will be victims of "war crimes?" Think about that for a moment. You must have a really low opinion of most American soldiers.
I have children and let me assure you that even were I dead or my husband dead and they were 12 and tried to kill others I would feel like they would have to be accountable for what they had done. That is because I brought them up to be accountable. They were when they were 12 and they are today.
My words may be unacceptable to you, but are acceptable to many others. I have to tell you that I am related to some of those people by marriage and they have no love for us, no appreciation of who we are, what we want, what we give, or anything about us. They want to control us and take what we have. The males OWN the children and OWN their wives and those children and wives better do what they are told and nothing you can do personally can change their viewpoint in a timely enough manner to make a difference.
Comparing our culture with theirs and what we would do and want is futile. You cannot even imagine the true depths of their hatred of us unless you are close to them, are related to them, or live with them. We have chosen not to associate with or speak with any of them because after 20 years of beating your head on a wall you tend to tire out and move along to something you can do that will work. I personally try to focus on things closer to home that I can and do work on, causes for which I can make a difference and which will not wear me out in the process. Sometimes after you have exhausted yourself, your ideas, and every avenue you can think of to effect change it is best to walk away if you want to have anything left of yourself.
There are dead beat
dads all over, white, black, hispanic, etc. Honestly, there are a lot of dead beat moms out there too.
One thing I don't get and maybe I don't get cause I'm white.....but Jesse Jackson made a comment about Obama not doing anything about blacks in prison. What the heck is Obama supposed to do? I mean....you do the crime.....you do the time. So what is it that Obama is supopsed to do here.....or anyone for that matter?
Dead-end dialog
The phrase "sending up a prayer" is not your exclusive property and no, that is not the cliche I was speaking of. Just another sign of how shallowing your thinking really is and how next to impossible it seems for you to "catch my drift." I am out of the business of trying to reach insult parity with you so forgive me if I skip over the rest of this garbage. No matter how hard you try, you cannot pass off insult for intelligence, so please don't waste your time or mine.
You are welcome for the infusion of new insults and verbal abuse. Your repertoire really was getting stale. Verbal abuse is not my strong suite, but unfortunately, it seems to be the only thing you are willing to respond to. Cerainly, the issues seem to be a big taboo.
No, I don't need to have the last word. Just trying to have a little fun but I have had enough of the mud bath for the time being. My condescending self is in need of something a little more productive and uplifting.
BTW, would you please try to resist the urge to plagiarize? A little bit of originality in thought and content would be a welcome surprise.
Off now in search of the job...and a little bit of substative conversation. This horse has been thrashed enough.
Later.
Ths is not my choice, but unfortunately,
Dead thread.
nm
Campaign was already dead. That's why
nm
How many dead-end bashes are you going
nm
What a talent, she was dead on. nm
.
It was not a dead end. The information was there...
you just chose to ignore it, because it was not flattering to Obama. Period.
I only lost $1000 so far-Hubby lost $2000 in a week (sm)
so, I called his financial advisor yesterday and told him to put hubby in a "safe" plan. It's now in a money market fund that is part of his IRA.
I have no choice. I have to stay where I am. I have no "safe" available. Neither of us will be able to retire on what is now in our 401Ks and you're not the only one. We couldn't buy a car with Both our 401Ks, let alone live on it.
We are late starters for retirement not until our late 40s funds (most of our employers did not offer pensions). We are now of the first retirement tier and although we own our home outright, if we live until we are 90, there is no way we can live off retirement 401Ks or SS.
My husband's father told him back in the 50s that we would experience something like what is happening today and stated it would be worse than the ཙ crash. It is sure starting to look that way, but we will survive some way, I hope.
We need to pray for the people on SS now that cannot survive. I, for one, would love to help them, but can't help ourselves at this moment.
tens of thousands dead
and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's and 1,744+ brave American soldiers are dead. So..lets see here..Saddam was responsible for killing thousands and Bush is responsible for killing tens of thousands.hmmm..hey, are Bush and Saddam brothers separated at birth..two fools with a thirst for blood? Seems like they are both war criminals. Saddam thumbs his nose at the world community and does what he wants..Bush thumbs his nose at the world community, the International Court of Justice and Geneva Convention and does what he wants..hmmm..they gotta be brothers, well, at least blood brothers.
Yes? Tell that to 40 million dead Jews. NM
and what about the dead in Uganda? The Sudan?
North Korea?
Oh, I forgot. THEY don't have oil.
and your board is dead most of the time anyway
You all can't discuss issues among yourselves, because you have no ideals. All of you are so different in your ideolgies that you don't even discuss amongst yourselves. You all have no glue, nothing to bond you together except...oh let's not forget the one thing is that you all hate Bush and conservatives. Other than that.nothing, zilch, nada. It's really amazing to see that the conservative board talks about human interest issues and other topics, but liberals, those who are supposed to be all about human issues and solving social problems seem to do nothing but bash, bash, bash. There's no problem solving going on in the democratic party nor is there any problem solving going on here. It's obvious to anyone who comes to these boards who are the most active politically and socially and that's the conservatives. We don't always agree about our president and some of us differ in ideals, but we have some set moral values that we go by, unlike you all where it's anything goes...so you all end up going no where.
If we are so dead and have no issues, what brings you here? sm
In the same boat eh?
The CON board is dead. No fighting going on there.
They need to fight like a fish needs water.
I used to be mad at them. Now I pity their poor, sad lives if the only pleasure they get is from trying to cause discomfort to others. Either way, they are unpleasant, tedious and offer nothing substantive, intelligent or worthwhile.
I say we ignore them and not even read their posts any more.
They're toxic.
Things are dead on both these boards
because posters who have any interest in rational debate have either been driven away or have easily found better places to go for discussion. Congratulations.
He's beating a dead horse.
Even Bush finally came clean and said there were none. That's when the *reason* for the war changed from WMDs to freeing the Iraqis (while ignoring bin Laden in Afghanistan).
I find it very, VERY interesting that his sudden *find* came less than 24 hours after PBS aired a very revealing show (*The Dark Side*) about the Iraq war, Bush, Tenet, Rumsfeld and Cheney, with the majority of the people interviewed being CIA agents, who generally had more than 20 years of service with the CIA, and they said some pretty shocking (but not too surprising) things about this whole war. (If you'd like to see this show, you can view it in its entirety on line by going to http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/; I'd personally recommend it.)
When it's all said and done, though, regardless of how many facts are presented, Santorum could have declared to the world that there's evidence that Saddam had SLINGSHOTS, and some unfortunate souls on these boards would still say, *See? We told you he had WMDs.* It's really difficult to even be upset, frustrated or angry with them any more. I just mostly feel sorry for them.
Rwanda, 800,000 dead in 100 days. sm
They pleaded for help from the UN and Clinton. No one helped them.
Benizar Butto id dead.
It has been confirmed the Ms. Butto has been killed by a bomb during the rally in Pakistan.
Ok...the link to the one quote is dead....
The rest of these are off leftist blogs. That being said...everything this pastor said, Wright has said or worse...including God dam* America. Some of the comments are over the top...but they do not preach Marxism and changing our form of government, and I don't see hatred for any race here. Wright doesn't like Jews, doesn't like Italians (garlicky I think he called them), admires Louis Farrakahn and we all know how he feels about Jews...
I am less concerned with someone saying a pipeline is God's will than I am someone saying God dam* my country and saying 9-11 was our chickens coming home to roost the very month it happened. There is no hatred from the pastor above nor from her, if in fact she said those things. Wright is hate from top to bottom.
Why don't we talk about Obama and his ties to ayers, to Alinsky, to Marxism?
the AP poll today has them dead even so....nm
nm
Can you not recognize a dead thread
x
You are beating a dead horse! (nm)
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
What about all those poor dead sperm?
Every time an egg is fertilized we should have millions of tiny graves, one for every sad little sperm that didn't make it.
"dam near dead to qualify for it" (sm)
You're right on the money there!!! I applied 10 months ago due to chronic pancreatitis from cystic fibrosis. (In fact, I was just discharged from my 10th hospitalization yesterday, after spending the night in the hospital for what they deemed to be a small stroke.)
I'm at the point now where I'm awaiting a hearing. My lawyer said it can take up to 14 months for one to be scheduled.
I was doing great with the medicines I had been prescribed because three of them are free from the manufacturer based on my income. One of these medications is the Duragesic patch, which would cost almost $700 a month if I wasn't enrolled in this program. (With this new diagnosis, however, I need to check to see who manufactures some of the other medicines I've now been prescribed.)
I would encourage anyone who has difficulty paying for their medicines to find out who manufactures them. I think many of them have a patient assistance program. It can really help a LOT.
Q. What’s black and blue and dead all over?
A. Anyone who dares to tell a joke about President Obama in public.
 It's funny cause it's true...
Well, if some dead person said it, it must be true. NM
nm
Hey - they gotta pay off the dead people
Those Dems - they're a laff riot a minute, aren't they?
Thousands may have been dead at the hands of Saddam anyway, what with
x
There are over 1800 war dead. This woman has met with the President once. sm
Which is once more than a lot of the other parents have. That isn't all she wants and if you really believe that, then you are a fool. I wouldn't put it past her to spit on him, but then, that would probably be okay, too.
Thirty Dead in One Apartment Building
Thirty Dead in One Apartment Building |
Tuesday, August 30, 2005  |
BILOXI, Miss. — Joy Schovest swam for her life, fighting Hurricane Katrina's (search) storm surge and its angry winds, brushing aside debris and floating cars to reach higher ground.
Behind her, at least 30 of her neighbors in the Quiet Water Beach (search) apartments were dying, trapped in their crumbling two-story building as it was swept away with much of this Mississippi coast community Monday.
We grabbed a lady and pulled her out the window and then we swam with the current, said Schovest, 55, breaking into tears. It was terrifying. You should have seen the cars floating around us. We had to push them away when we were trying to swim.
The tragedy at the apartment building represented the biggest known cluster of deaths caused by Katrina. Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (search) said the death toll in the county where Biloxi is located could be as high as 80.
The only remaining evidence of the Quiet Water Beach apartments was a concrete slab surrounded by a heap of red bricks that were once the building's walls. A crushed red toy wagon, jewelry, clothing and twisted boards were mixed in with the debris. The four-lane road that separated the building from the beachfront was buckled and covered with rubble.
This is all that's left of my house, said nearby resident Jack Crochet, 56, shaking his head and looking at the rubble. It's never going to be the same. It's over.
The storm also inflicted a punishing blow to Biloxi's waterfront casinos, down the beach from the apartment building. The Grand Casino gambling barge and a second casino broke away from their moorings, ending up in a ditch now filled with water and slot machines.
Basically, it's a total loss, and that's in excess of $100 million to replace what was lost here, Bernie Burkholder, president and chief executive of Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi, said as he walked around the casino property.
People examined the slot machines to see if they still contained coins, and looting broke out in other areas of Biloxi.
People are just casually walking in and filling up garbage bags and walking off like they're Santa Claus, said Marty Desei, owner of a Super 8 motel in Biloxi. I haven't seen anything like this in my whole life.
The lucky ones in the Quiet Water Beach apartment building and other vulnerable areas of Biloxi described a scene of pandemonium as they fled the rising water. When asked why they ignored evacuation orders, some said they did not think the storm would be that bad; others would not give a reason.
Apartment tenant Landon Williams, a 19-year-old construction worker, said he and his grandmother and uncle ran from the crumbling building as the storm hit. As they later swam through the swirling water and debris, we watched the apartments disintegrate. You could hear the big pieces of wood cracking and breaking apart.
He said the winds flung two-by-fours and drywall.
I lost everything. We can't even find my car, he said. I'm looking through this wreckage to see if I can find anything that's mine. If not, I'm moving on. I think I'll move on to North Carolina and do some work over there. I can't take it here anymore — not after this.
Williams said six of his neighbors in the building who remained behind also survived. As the second story collapsed, they climbed onto the roof and part of it floated away and they floated to a house that made it, he said.
Paul Merritt, 30, surveyed the damage in Biloxi with his 18-year-old wife and their 3-month-old son, Brandon. He said the water rose to the second story of his townhouse, which is less than a block off the beach.
I've never seen destruction of this magnitude, Merritt said. You see this stuff on TV and you hope that it never happens to you. Everything's gone.
Ida Punzo rode out the storm with a friend and two neighbors in her 130-year-old home on the beachfront in Biloxi. The first two floors of the old house were almost completely gone, but she survived.
It was a miracle, Punzo said. This place is held together with God's spit. We're not supposed to be alive.
Fox news web site reports over 700 dead. sm
It was a sunni attack on sunnis and it's more than likely retaliation for the constitution. Iraq is definitely headed toward cival war.
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