Gross lines vs. 65-char
Posted By: Veteran on 2007-03-23
In Reply to: Congrats on the new job! - clhmt
A gross line is anything on a line IS a line - usually the standard is Courier 12, 1 inch margins - that way, if a doc wants Arial or Times New Roman or any other font, he will know that it will always be counted in Courier 12 regardless of the font he uses.
65-char means based on a 65-char per line basis, lines are counted, so it is not a "line" unless there are 65 characters on it - the counting programs that count this convert the document to one big long document without returns, etc., linking all the characters in one long line and counting them that way. Clearly you can see how many fewer lines you would get by this method. When this was brought into the business it was touted as a "fairer" way of counting - but the only one it is "fairer" to is the doctor - it cuts the lines vs gross lines an average of over 30% - for example, if you are making 7 cpl for a 65-char line, you are in reality making 4.8 cpl gross lines - quite a difference.
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Gross lines versus 65-char, etc.
I think the above poster misunderstood me. I was trying to simplify the difference between counting a gross line and counting a line via character - which IS basically blowing out the document to full 65 character lines (with or without spaces)and counting them, versus counting anything on the line as a line.
That is true, though - the best way to compare documents is to look at the gross line count (after changing margins and font to 1" and Courier 12 respectively), then taking the character count and dividing by 65. Many who have never been paid by gross lines or have not really compared the difference would be amazed to see how many less lines you get on a 65-char count.
Two companies, both 65 char lines including spaces, one pays 0.10/l and the other 8.5/gross line. n
x
What is a 55 char gross line compared to a 65-char line including spaces?
t
65 char per line is not the same as gross?? sm
You said "Anyway go with gross line, I still quote it as 65 characters per line which it is but I count by gross and 12 font."
65 char per line is NOT the same as gross. How in the world do you come to the conclusion that it is? If it was the same, then the 65-char line would not even exist. Gross line count means that even a line containing only one word is counted as a whole line. 65-char. line means that a line must contain at least 65 characters (i.e., letters, numbers, or symbols) to be counted as a whole line.
Gross line does not equal 65-char. line and you are doing a huge disservice to your clients and to the other MTs asking for advice here by saying it is. Clients do sometimes check the line counts to see if they match (obviously yours don't so you have been lucky so far) and if you bill them at gross lines and they are counting at 65 chars per line, your line count will be quite a bit higher and it will look like you have been padding your line counts.
Please, do clarify how it is you feel a gorss line is the same as 65 char. per line. Also, font does make a difference when using gross lines but does not make a difference when using 65-char lines so again, your theory that you are switching fonts tells me you are, indeed, charging gross lines and yet are quoting clients at 65 chars a line.
Does anyone else think this is just a tad on the shady side ???
Gross versus 65 char line
Can someone tell me how a gross line is calculated. Thanks.
65-char line to client and charge for gross? sm
That's a bit underhanded. If they ever get suspicious, your line counts are going to exceed what they count at 65 char. a line. You said yourself that 65-char/line and gross line are two different things, so why do you contract with the client saying you bill for one and actually bill for another ?? That's shady, IMO, and I would never quote my client a 65-char line and then charge them for gross line.
At 40 hours a week? Is that gross line or 65 char?
You'll never get an accurate comparison unless you have every single detail lining up, i.e., same rate per line, same amount of hours, same type of work, same doctors dictating, same amount of Expander entries, same typing speed, same method of payment, etc., etc.
It just doesn't matter what anyone here posts -- it's going to be different for each individual. There is no real true way to predict what you will make at this profession!
I quote a price per gross 65 char line, say 12 cpl, but then convert
I have one client who doesn't want bulk and is Franklin condensed 10; another is on Garamond 12 with a 1 inch margin R and L. I take a large block of type, put in a format that gives me 65 char per line and do a line count that way and get a price for the whole block, for example, 58 gross lines at 12 cpl = $6.96. Then I take the same type and format it as the client wishes, get a line count and divide the dollar amount by the lines. If their formatted version came to 28 lines, then 6.96 divided by 28, would come to 24 cpl for their format. I always include a line on the invoice to indicate their 65 char line rate. Something like
2586 extended lines at 0.24 cpl = $620.64
(your line rate converts to 0.12 cpl for standard 65 char line)
I always educate the client as to the industry standard of the 65 char line which allows clients to compare apples to apples...
Aaahhhh, now I get it. Gross lines vs. Character lines. I guess I've just been conditioned to
think in terms of character lines. One of the perils of working as an IC for somebody who defines what a line is versus owning your own company and defining it yourself. After working for someone else for 15 years, maybe it's time to bust out on my own.
Gross lines include all lines containing
printable characters, so a full line and a line with one word on it are charged equally. Straight lines are basically the same as gross lines, but with this method of counting the blank lines are counted as well (again, equally). I have only had one company pay this way, and they are a middle man. I would think the charge would be about the same as for gross lines, and that not too many offices will want their lines counted this way (the one I worked on was probably inherited from someone who had counted the lines that way, so just continued).
What's the diff between a gross line and a 65-char line?
Mebbe just got my first OWN ACCOUNT YAY! He said to charge him the "going rate" since I pay him that. This could be the start, baby! (I hope)
7.5/gross line or 10/65 char line?
Anyone have any idea which would come out to more? TIA
No....only if you are doing gross lines- nm
xx
gross lines
One can do far better in a day when counting gross lines rather than character counted -- especially if very familiar with the accounts (of course, that helps either way :).
I do gross lines
I go into file, properties, statistics and that gives me my gross count. Very simple and easy as long as you are using Word, no program to buy. I am surprised that the company you are working for did not show this to you. Also gives you characters if you are paid for characters divided by whatever your line is and not gross lines.
Patti
gross lines
Hey everybody, gross lines are TOTALLY different than a 65-character line. I used to have a gross lines account doing operative reports and I did at least 2000 a day in about 5 hours. Now I am on a 65 character line and I struggle to get 2000 in 8 hours. If I had my old account and worked 12 hours, I would be getting AT LEAST 4200 lines a day. You gotta compare apples to apples. :)
Raw gross lines will pay the most sm
If you type in word. You simply highlight the entire document and do a word count using the tools. Once you have your line count, you would times that by cents per line you charge. 65 character with or without spaces will be doing your own math for each document and takes more time. Go mid range in this instance if you use raw line count. Be sure to have a contract agreement or at least a Memorandum of Understanding and provide them with good turnaround as stated in your contract. This makes you look very professional and worth the going rate. Congratulations! NOTE: And to think there have been statements made like "everything is going to voice recognition". Your "new account" says NOT!!! Have fun!
Is this for gross lines or sm
65 character lines?
I think that would make a big difference.
More than me with gross lines
That is more than me with a gross line count, checked a couple of documents. Except for when I do a lot of consults/letters and I am about to count from date to signature for gross lines. But if you do mostly chart notes, it is good. Just check a couple of your documents and see what it is versus 65cpl at 12 to 13 cpl and then gross line at 12 to 13 cpl and see where you stand. Again, I used to be paid 1 cent per word and did well until it comes to letters. Also, only you know what you make per hour and if it is good for you.
Patti
Gross lines
count lines equally whether there are 65 characters or 2 characters, or any other number. Each new line is a line whether it is full or not.
I know about gross lines however
if you are using an Arial 10 font and margins are .5 and .5 then you are putting about 90 characters on a line which is way too many for 6 cents per line. That is all I was saying about which font you use and what your margins are. I use a smaller font for my accounts but when I do my line count -- I count gross lines -- I change it back to a 12 font and 1" margins at the sides as when I quoted my price it was so much per line and my definitiation of a line is 1" margins and using 12 font. So that is why I was asking about what font and what margins you have.
Question versus gross lines versus 65-character lines....
I have always charged or been paid by 65 or 60 character lines or per letter or space typed, but have never been paid or charged per gross line.
What is the advantage of this? If I were to charge 11 cents per 65-character line including spaces, what does this figure out to for an average line rate and how do you do this calculation?
I'm wondering if it is financially beneficial for me to bill by gross line or to keep it the way I have it. I do know some accounts will only pay per 65-character line, as this was the deal my first own account I recently acquired. They were adamant on a 65-character line, but didn't specify with or without spaces and I personally would never not charge for spaces.
Thanks for explaining this. I appreciate it and hope everyone has a speedy day.
Are your lines 65-character, gross, or
other? Just curious as I do clinic work and in my area the going rate for gross lines is about 12 cpl, but more like 15-17 cpl for 65-character lines. I have heard (don't really know how reliable it is) that hospitals are charged up to the 22 cpl range. (I assumed that was on 65-character lines.)
Gross lines - possibly
I have two surgeons and when the do a lot of consults, hernia, breast cysts, etc. I have been able to get 600+ an hour but that is gross lines and I have physical templates set up for each type of problem. I have done 1100 in 90 minutes but again it was gross lines. I have been doing them for almost ten years and I know what they are going to say before they say it. My only Expander though is auto correct and I often think what I could do with another expander but it is hard to teach this old dog new tricks though after the 1st am going to look at a couple of expanders. But I share with my friends on how I count and try to show them how to increase their line counts so ask her. I am always up for sharing my experience and tricks of the trade as long as I have the time and they don't steal my accounts. Good luck.
and I count gross lines
I do not cheat, I count gross lines and from top to bottom but I make sure that it is fair so my price per line is lower and it all equals out in the end. On chart notes, it is the total amount of lines which includes 2 spaces between patients which then helps to pay for the cutting apart, sticky paper and delivery. But my accounts are aware of this and again it shows in my per line charge.
If gross lines average is 1500 nm
nn
Need to count gross lines only w/o spaces, sm
Used Sylcount free download but it expired. Any alternatives. Did not like Practicount. Need to count gross lines only. How do I do that using MS Word?
Gross lines are not counted in characters.
A gross line = any number of characters on a line counts as a complete line. The actual number of characters per line will vary.
Hmm, I use gross lines and Sylcount is always higher
I've compared Sylcount with several different line counting programs and Sylcount was always higher, even if it was only by 10 lines. I did find that PractiCount is the same as Sylcount and I ended up switching to that since you don't have to convert files to rich text format, but other than that, I always found Sylcount to be the best.
8-9 cpl for Gross lines, easy work ....
Where? Where?
When it comes to gross lines, font does make--sm
a difference, as well as the margins. I was doing gross lines at 0.675 cpl with courier new 12 font with 1 inch margins side to side and 2 inches at the top. I grossed almost 50k this past year, so to me, gross lines are much better. we recently had a management change and are now doing 65 cpl at 0.09 cpl. I figured that would be about 500 a month less and 6000 a year less. that is a big difference, to me, anyway and I am not happy about it, either. This is just to give you some idea of what gross line pay is like. good luck to you.
Gross line is actual lines. sm
9 cpl if count is by 65 chars is not too much, IMO, for an experienced MT. If counting by gross lines, 7.5 c on a gross line equals about 9 cpl on a 65-char line, so if they use gross lines, it might sound low per line but it equals out in the end. A gross line is any line on the page. In other words, you can use your finger and count each line on the page that has words on it, and that's your line count. Most don't count blank lines. However, a lot depends on what they are including in that line, regardless. Are spaces included if 65-char line? Does the line count software count formatting changes (such as bold, underline, etc) If so, that will increase total line count. If not, it will decrease it. Gross line is usually a better deal unless the company is using a size 9 font or something or decrease the side margins. 11-12 size font with 1" margins is good with gross lines. The only thing that affects gross lines is the side margins or the font size. With 65-char line, font and margins don't affect it, which is why most go with that now. You take total characters (incl spaces if they pay for them, as someone else said) and divide by 65 to get total lines. Another thing to ask, if they use templates or normals, are the lines in those included? If not, that decreases total line count, too.
It's really hard for someone to say "this is the rate you should ask for" though, because there can be so much variability from company to company as far as what they count as a line. Also, is it clinic or acute care work? If clinic, generally easier and same docs all the time, so even at a lower line rate, you might make more in the end if you use expander, normals, templates, etc. Is there a platform or can you use Word and your own expander? If acute care where you have different docs all the time, a lot of ESLs, clunky platform, no Expander program, etc., it might slow you down so even with a higher line rate, you might not make as much in the long run. Therefore, you have to take all of that into consideration to arrive at what line rate you should charge or ask for ... almost have to adjust to each different company or client, really. For clinic work, 8-9 cents per 65-char line can net some good pay. For acute care, you might want more like 10-11 to get the same pay. Hope this all makes sense!
10 cpl for gross lines is pretty good for Rad.
x
it's got to be gross lines or lots of canned text (nm)
x
Help! Is this a good deal? .09 gross lines with a font of ...sm
Times New Roman 11 and 1-inch margins. It will be op notes, but I have a sample report and there are sure A LOT of characters on those full lines.....
what is the .065 cents per gross line equivalent to in 65 character lines?
Would it be about 8 cpl 65 characters or higher?
my mistake, I was thinking of gross lines. soorrryyy. jeez!
nm
Maybe if it is gross lines, lots of headers and footers and normals......sm
Other than that, I really can't imagine it.
Chars aren't counted in gross lines. If you have a 4-line paragraph...sm
you have 4 gross lines, no matter how long or short the sentences are. A heading on it's own line is 1 gross line. A signature on it's own line is 1 gross line. The date at the top of a document on it's own line is 1 gross line. Anything on a line going from margin to margin is 1 gross line, no matter how few or many characters, or if there are spaces or not, even if there's only 1 character on that line like 'A' for instance. Does this help? :)
Ask for a sample report. Count the gross lines on a full page. Then
figure out the line rate you want to make. For example, if there are 30 lines on the page and you would want to charge $0.15 per line, then that would be $4.50 per page. If they would like your hourly rate, figure out how many pages you think you can transcribe in an hour. Using the above example, if you can transcribe 4 pages per hour, then charge $18.00 per hour. In California the going transcription rates are approximately $22-$25 per hour.
7 cpl gross and counts blank lines, IC status-- make a ton of money because it's easy work...nm
x
Gross lines and 12 hour days!!! I stand corrected, you weren't stretching the truth, you were...
misleading everyone. The majority of MTSOs pay by a 65 character lines. Paying for spaces or not paying for spaces is usually the only variant between companies. You come on here and say that you tyhpe 3000 a line a day and leave it at that. Don't say how many hours your work, how long your lines are, etc. That is misleading!
I probably am typing 3000 gross lines a day in my eight hour day if I were coutning gross lines. For fun, I think on my next work day, I'm going to jot down my gross line count in each document and add it up at the end of the day and compare it to my actual line count. I'll let everyone know what the difference is.
Geez! Really burns me up when people get on here at start spouting out nonsense as if it were fact and we should all be in awe of their skills and expertise! For future reference, the truth lies in the details. You can't just say you do 3000 lines a day and leave it at that. Notice when I posted below how many lines a day I do, I added that I work a strictly 8 hour day and that my lines are 65 characters with spaces.
Give accurate and detailed information people, PLEASE!
Own accounts; 12 cpl 65 char and 17 cpl 65 char.
Accounts are on the West Coast.
Gross line, also including blank lines because my line rate is so low. It all works out in the wash.
x
65 character line versus gross lines versus pay by word
I am checking into other options for transcription. Can anyone tell me how to compare all of these types of lines & also payment per word? I know companies use different scales, so I wondered how they compare. I have been paid on a 65 character line with spaces, but I may be making a change in the future - don't want to get burned.
Thank you in advance!
it does not count gross lines...I count 37 and it counts 67.
x
i think it is incredibly gross. personal hygiene commercials are just gross anyway.
this one is stupid and gross.
8 CPL, 65-char w/ sp.
RTI, Inc./California (but I am in AZ as IC. Think I could do better.
0.775 (?? how they figure it) and 0.8 (65-char w/ sp)
/
A 5-char word would be better....
I just counted an entire report that I had done earlier. It's typical of clinic reports that I type every day. No long medical terms, just the basics.
It probably isn't the most reliable way, but using MS Word Count, the report has 394 actual words, 2387 chars with spaces.
So, if you want to say a word is 5 chars:
Divide all the characters in the report (2387) by 5 (the number of chars per word).
Then divide by 8 (for the number of words per line).
This comes out to 59.67 5-char, 8-word lines.
Again, using MS Word Count:
To calculate a 65-char line:
There are 2387 actual chars in the report. Divide 65 into 2387.
*There are 36.72 65-char lines.
To calculate an 8-word line:
There are 394 actual words. Divide 394 by 8 (words per line).
*There are 49.25 8-word lines.
That's an easy way for her to do her line count for this company, as all she has to do is let MS count the actual words in her report, then divide by 8 to get her line count.
Pay for this report:
36.72 (65-char lines) at 0.08/line -- $2.88.
49.25 (8-word lines) at 0.08/line -- $3.94.
With the pay being 0.08/line, comparatively speaking, that still comes out to about one extra 8-word line (for every three 8-word lines she types) when comparing it line for line to the standard 65-char line.
At 0.08/line, a 5-char, 8-word line would be $4.77 for the same report. If the OP wants to go to the trouble of counting this way, she would do well.
She could probably also find a line counting program she could program to generate her bill and simplify everything.
10 cpl per 65 char line
I include all spaces, headers, footers, etc with a 24 hour TAT.
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