Question from a non-Catholic
Posted By: Guest on 2008-03-11
In Reply to:
I heard someone say recently that when she goes to confession, she has to face the priest directly, as opposed to talking through a screen and not seeing him face-to-face. She said it's much harder doing it that way, so she began going to confession in a non-local church. I didn't get a chance to ask why it's done that way now.
Anyone know?
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Cradle Catholic, now Christmas Catholic here
I believe the bit about not being able to get married in the Catholic church after being married in another church may be church (or that particular sect) specific. If a couple is not married in a Catholic church and gets married, they are viewed as "living in sin". To my knowledge, it doesn't marry who married them (outside the church), they were still living in sin. And the Catholic church is more than happy to rectify that by performing their own ceremony (for a fee, of course).
On the plus side, if they get married in a church outside the Catholic one, the Catholic church does not recognize it as a true marriage, thereby freeing up both parties to ultimately get married at some time in the future in the Catholic church, after being properly repentant for their unsanctioned fornication.
I am not Catholic and maybe this is how it is in all Catholic churches, but I have to ask!
My daughter is engaged to a very nice young man who is Catholic or should I say his family is Catholic and he refuses to break ranks. He has insisted they get married in his grandmother's (and his) church. Okay, fine. I'm fine with that. My daughter is fine with that. She started taking the conversion classes, but really isn't that interested in converting. She was making the gesture for her fiance. Fiance' says she doesn't have to convert and that she doesn't have to convert in order for them to be married in the church.
After they had been engaged for four months (they dated for a year before they got engaged), they called the priest at the grandmother's church to meet with him about setting a date and getting married. First meeting, they drive into the city to meet the priest at the time he told them and the priest never shows up! He later apologizes, but never offers an explanation for standing them up. The second time they set up a meeting, the priest shows up. He proceeds to tell them that before he can "allow" them to be married, he must first talk to family and friends to be sure they are not living together and also he has to give serious thought because my daughter is not Catholic and he has worries that the children they will not be raised in the church. He then proceeds to tell my daughter that she needs to wear a skirt or dress the next time she meets with him (she had on dress slacks and a blouse)! He also wants to look at the wedding dress and the bride's maid dresses to be sure they are appropriate and that women should not show bare shoulders in the church, which basically means we have to have little covers/jackets made for each bride's made and now for the bride.
So my daughter tells me all of this and I'm irritated. I decide that if this priest calls me, I'm going to give him what for. In my mind, this is all a bit ridiculous. Even if my daughter and fiance are living together (which they are) they are trying to rectify that by getting married. My daughter begs me not to be rude and yet asks me to lie to the priest about them living together. My daughter tells me that my son-in-law to be was raised to believe it is a sin to get married outside the Catholic church. I wasn't aware that the Catholics still believed this. But my daughter is adamant that she wants to do this one thing for her groom because the rest of the wedding is about her. So okay, I stifle it. I used to be young and in love and ready to do anything for my betrothed.
Next meeting with the priest, the priest is satisfied that they do not live together. Thank goodness he never called me, so I was not forced to lie or be polite. At the next meeting, however, he decides he's not going to give them an answer on whether or not they can be married unless my daughter memorizes the 10 commandments in order and also some sort of freaking prayer. So my daughter calls me, clearly upset, but willing to do this one last thing. I am outside my mind with outrage! Still, it's my daughter's decision to participate in this dog and pony show.
Tonight, my daughter has a meeting with the priest, performs her little assignment, and presents her wedding dress for inspection. The priest then says he's not going to marry them and wants them to wait a year, wants my daughter to officially convert, and then meet with him for pre-marriage counseling and start the whole show over again.
Now I'm furious and I am about ready to call this priest up and tell him what I think of him, his church, and all this crap he is espousing. Who does he think he is?!?!?!?! I am a Christian. I attend an Assembly of God church and I do not believe for one minute that someone should perform tricks and jump through hoops just to get freaking married. Yes, pre-marital counseling is probably a good thing, but other than that.
In my opinion, this priest is on some sort of power trip and is extremely self-righteous and pompous! I also did my own investigating on this guy and found out that this same priest was asked to come to the hospital to give last rites to a dying Catholic woman whose own priest was out of town. This priest said he would only come and administer the last rites if the daughter making the request would make a substantial donation to his parrish! What kind of crap is that!!!?!?!!?
What kind of man is the priest? Is this indicative of the entire religion of catholicism? I hate to be rude, but they have priests molesting children and dabbling in homosexuality and yet this pompous ass of a priest treats my daughter as if she is not good enough to get married in his church!
Sorry this is so long, but I am just so mad!
I am lapsed Catholic married to another lapsed Catholic.....sm
DH and I were cradle Catholics and were lapsed Catholics when we got married 15 years ago. We got married by a Presbyterian minister in a non-denominational chapel during a civil war re-enactment. When I got pregnant, I got to wondering about the whole baby and baptism thing. You Catholics will know what I mean...original sin, purgatory, limbo, etc.
Long story short...We got our son baptized at 3 months of age by our regular parish priest. We had to go through a class (maybe 4 weeks long or so) and agree to bring him up as a Catholic. While we were getting him baptized, we also had the priest bless our marriage. We are still pretty lax about attending church, but our son has gone through his First Communion, is working towards his Confirmation, and the church now recognizes our civil ceremony.
I agree with the other posters....go over his head if you have to. I doubt all those hoops are necessary.
There many Catholic options
If you want something prepackaged:
www.setonhome.org (regionally accredited.)
www.kolbe.org
www.chcweb.com
www.olvs.org (They are traditional.)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cathswap/
Cathswap is a yahoo group for buying used Catholic curriculum.
Are you Catholic, by chance? :)
nm
Catholic traditions
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/oraltrad.htm
What does it being a Catholic hospital have to
everywhere. The place I used to work for, they were atheists and it was like working in hel* every day.
Since the Catholic Church
is still firmly entrenched in the Dark Ages, it is no surprise. That poor child, but BRAVO to her parents.
As a catholic, they did not "Get rid" of that option.
There are 2 seperate ways you can "enter" a confessional - 1 is behind screen, the other is face to face.
Granted some churches don't give you the choice anymore, why I don't know, but they are not supposed to do that.
Not just Catholic, protestants have confession
When Luther broke away from the Catholic church in the Reformation (the beginning of now-known "protestant or noncatholic" denominations), he did not do away at all with the confessional. Churches, even other than Catholic, and especially Lutheran still have the confessional. Most modern-day Lutheran churches, however have counseling with the Pastor. Same thing as confessional. Counseling or confession are both private and under the same guidelines as confidentiality except where crimes are admitted. The modern day confessional for nonreligious people would be the therapist's office.
From a practicine and devout Catholic...
The sacrament of confession may take place either face-to-face with a priest confessor or through the more traditional screen in a confessional. The face-to-face method is considered more modern, but in ancient times this was the practice. In fact, public confessions in front of the entire church community were done. Today, both are acceptable ways. Some people prefer to sit and talk to their confessors, others like the anonymity of the screen. It's a preference. Catholic churches built more recently, say from the late 1970s on sometimes do not have confessionals. That was part of the post-Vatican II construction, and a lot of the traditional architectural structures were abandoned. Within the past 10, maybe even 5 years, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has spoken on this topic, and is encouraging newly constructed Catholic churches to include some of the more traditional architectural features to be included, such as kneeling rails before the altar, side altars, confessionals, etc.
So the answer to your question is that confession can be done either face-to-face or behind a screen. It's a matter of personal preference, and is sometimes influenced by the availability of confessionals in recently constructed churches. In any case, Catholics are not required to go to confession in their home parishes. They may take part in the sacrament of reconciliation with any Catholic priest and at other Catholic churches. Your friend is doing nothing wrong, and no matter where she goes to confession she is receiving God's grace and spiritual direction.
I know this topic comes up from time to time, and debate about whether or not confession "to a man" is necessary for salvation. I will not join in that debate. Arguments about the Catholic Church arise because of a lack of understanding about what the Church actually believes. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, "Few hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think is the Catholic Church."
There is a wonderful website which includes a podcast network of great programming on what the Catholic Church believes. One in particular, "The Daily Breakfast", usually includes a segment called "The Peculiar Bunch", which answers all sorts of questions that non-Catholics have about the things that Catholics do. If anyone is interested, they can visit SQPN.com
It's true, a lot of what we Catholics do seems very peculiar! I admit it! But there are reasons why we do these things. Whether or not other people agree with those reasons is another matter altogether. We are all brothers and sisters created by God. Our human dignity is paramount, and stems from being God's very own creations. Therefore, even through disagreements, we should be respectful. I personally think that learning about why different faiths believe what they do is one way that we can show respect for each other and for the human dignity imbued in us by God.
From a cradle, practicing Catholic.
I've been a Catholic all my life, received the sacraments, married in the Church to a fellow cradle Catholic, sent our children to Catholic school, and attend Mass every week.
I'm steamed at your DD's situation, too!
My guess is that this is an older priest, and he has issues. Contact his bishop in his diocese and get the REAL information about Catholic marriage.
Yes, when a non-Catholic marries a Catholic, the non-Catholic must agree that children will be raised in the Church. As part of the rite of matrimony, on the day of the wedding, they will be asked three things before they say their vows. They will be asked if they have come freely without reservation to be joined in marriage. Will they love and honor each other as man and wife for the rest of their lives? And finally, they will be asked if they will accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church.
That pretty much covers the bases. Remembering that the Catholic Church does not allow divorce, the first two points cover that. Neither party to the marriage must have been married previously. Annulments versus divorce are another topic, and that does not apply to your DD, so I'll skip that discussion. But the couple to be married must understand fully that they are entering into a sacramental marriage for the rest of their lives until parted by death.
Accepting children from God and raising them in the Church is the last part. We could discuss the topic of birth control, but on that point, I'm not the one to argue. I'm a good Catholic except on that point, and one day I suppose I'll learn if I really was a sinner for using b.c. or not. Anyway, that's another topic.
Regarding the wedding dress, it is true that good taste requires that shoulders be covered in a Catholic church. It's not a hard and fast rule, and it's almost impossible these days to find a dress with sleeves anyway. Twenty-five years ago when I was married, we all had big, puffy sleeves and big hair. Strapless is today's fashion, and those come and go. I would probably deal with that by adding a shrug to wear in church and then remove for the reception. Still, it's not a hard and fast rule, and the priest is just being a stickler about tradition. I've been to many Catholic weddings recently where the brides wore strapless dresses. The old people in the church murmur and disapprove over it, but it doesn't affect the marriage.
To summarize my long response, please have your DD and son-in-law consult with the diocese. Don't just shop for another priest. Go right to the priest's boss, the bishop. Your DD should not have to jump through hoops. In fact, these silly hoops are the sorts of things that push people away from not only the Catholic faith, but from all churches. I'm sure we've all heard people tell stories about how some priest, minister, nun, or church lady did something to upset someone, and so now so-and-so won't step foot in a church again. That's the real sin!
But also remember, that for Catholics, marriage is a sacrament. It's not just a ceremony. We believe in 7 sacraments, all instituted by Christ. It's a serious matter. Because the Church and the community of the faithful see it that way and believe marriage to be a lifetime commitment, there is a definite way for the sacrament to be received. Encourage your DD and future son-in-law to learn more about it, but to learn from good sources, including diocesan officials. I would also suggest they get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or the more simply written book, This Is Our Faith by Michael Francis Pennock. If they arm themselves with true facts, then perhaps this resistant priest will be made to do the right thing.
I know the catholic religion has guidelines
that my religion, Methodist, don't have as I have relatives that have converted so they can get married. I think in my cousin's case, he did not want to jump through all those hoops and was thinking about getting married by a methodist preacher. That priest told them that if they do that, but then his wife-to-be would loose her place in the church, meaning she could still go but she could not, participate in ceremonies, make decisions for the church etc., because she would not be considered married and living in sin.
Anyway, I think your dd and future SIL should get a 2nd opinion from another priest. But, you should remember too that this is their battle. If they are big enough to get married, they are big enough to fight their own battles. If they truly want to be married than they will and this is pretty much small potatoes.
Transgender Boy Barred From Catholic School
Transgender Boy Barred From Catholic School
Parents Of 8-Year-Old Allow 'Him' To Live As 'Her'
Posted: 10:58 am EDT May 18, 2009
Updated: 11:50 am EDT May 18, 2009
OMAHA, Neb. -- An Omaha couple is allowing their 8-year-old son to openly live life as a girl. It’s a decision that means the child is no longer able to attend Catholic school.
Therapists and the child’s parents say the second grade student is transgender, a medical condition where a person’s inner sense of identity doesn’t match their biological gender. Some gender experts say as many as one in 500 people may be transgender or carry significant traits of the opposite sex.
"It’s kind of like you’re trapped somewhere and you can’t get out," said the boy, whose name and face are not being made public to protect the family from potential harm.
"She’s been a girl since the beginning, everything about her, the way she dances and skips around and the things she’s attracted to. It’s more than toys and clothes," said the child’s mother.
The mother said the child has consistently asked to be called a girl since she was 4 years old.
"One night, she said, 'Every night when I go to bed, I pray my inside will match my outside. But it never happens,'" the mother said, recalling the words of her middle child.
The child’s artwork is filled with crayon-colored images of princesses and mermaids. Her family has allowed the child to wear dresses and female clothing in their west Omaha home, but until recently, she had to change into boy clothes for her brother’s baseball games, church or any outing outside the house.
"Now I can wear nail polish, get rid of all my boy clothes and not worry about that name," the child said.
The child’s case recently came to light when her parents met with a leader of the Omaha Catholic Archdiocese to talk about transitioning the student into third grade at her school, St. Wenceslaus.
The family wanted the child to use a new female name, be able to wear a girl’s uniform and be included in girl’s activities.
The mother, a life-long Catholic, thought making the transition in their parish would be the best place for their child to continue friendships, with a support system that included other parents and children.
"The child is welcomed to come, but it would not be acceptable to change the child’s gender and present as a girl," said Omaha Archdiocese's Chancellor, the Rev. Joseph Taphorn.
Taphorn said having the child attend the school for three years as a boy, and then presenting as a girl would not be a good learning environment for the child or other students. He said school has to be a peaceful, positive environment for everyone.
The child will attend a public school in the fall, using her chosen name and wearing a ponytail in her hair.
"It was not a decision that was made rashly at all. It was a decision to protect her psyche and her self-esteem," the mother said.
Therapists agree that forcing a person to live in a social role outside their perceived gender is damaging.
Omaha mental health therapist Ellie Hites said she’s worked with more than 200 transgendered clients in Omaha over the past 35 years.
Hites said she does psychological evaluations on all of her clients.
"One hundred percent of the time, I’ve never had anybody show up anything other than healthiest in the chosen gender role, as opposed to biological," Hites said.
She said her adult transgender clients have lived through nervous breakdowns, suicide attempts and deep depression because they could never truly be themselves. She has four transgendered clients right now.
"The story that I get is that 'I've known since I was real little, but everybody laughed or nobody paid any attention,'" Hites said.
The therapist said transgendered children insist they are the opposite sex, consistently.
"It’s like they arrive here with one biology but the mental set is counter to that," Hites said.
The 8-year-old’s favorite color is aqua. Her favorite toy: American Girl Dolls. And right now she’s reading a Junie B. Jones book that made her giggle when she talked about the plot.
Pink and aqua barrettes held her shoulder-length layered hair out of her face, while she drew chalk pictures of clouds on the pavement.
When her mother announced that the child would be allowed to pierce her ears next week, the girl screeched and had a huge smile on her face.
"You’ve waited long enough to live as a girl," the mother said.
The mother is on a mission to educate the community and encourage churches to open a dialog about diversity and acceptance of all people.
She recently waged an e-mail campaign to urge her church members to place an empty envelope in the collection basket on Mother’s Day weekend. She said she wanted to send a message to the church that church members can have a voice and that they shouldn’t just blindly follow the flock.
"Just take the time to listen. It is different. It’s something most people have never heard of, but it doesn’t make it scary or pathological," she said.
hold up...are you sure this is a Roman Catholic Church?...
First, let me state I have utmost respect for my faith and priests but they cannot force your daughter to convert...it is against the Roman Catholic faith to do so (prosyletizing). Also, in regard to all the other issues that you mentioned, any so-called "sinful activities" that may or may not have gone prior to marriage, these are reserved only for the confessional and not for the premarital screening process. The priest has no right to ask for "penitence" or to know their secrets. I think you may be onto something; my suggestion is to contact the archdiocese this priest lives in and calmly state your case without passion; he may have had other complaints against him. A wedding day should be a sacred occasion filled with joy and i hope you can resolve this issue.
I always thought it was. I'm Jewish and ex-husband Catholic. I've even
xx
I used to love spelling bees too. However, I went to a Catholic school and......
they were required, just like learning the catechism. LOL. I have a TON of holy cards from my grade school years. But I'll be darned if I can remember the word I won my last bee with in 8th grade.
I told my son's 6th grade teacher that I was concerned about the fact that they didn't study spelling, or grammar, the old fashioned kind of subject, verb, and object grammer. Those of you who are in your 50's and plus will know EXACTLY what I am talking about. But that is a subject for a whole other discussion.
My sister (lapsed Catholic) and brother-in-law (Jewish)
don't seem to have had any problems -- they celebrate Xmas/Hannukah and Easter/Passover with the kids; if anything, it's my sister who's the more proactive one in making sure they celebrate Jewish holidays. This has led to such amusing moments as the one at their seder earlier this year, in which sis asked BIL a question about something in the Haggadah, and he said, "honey, how would I know? You're the good Jew in the family."
No problems with parents on either side -- heck, I think I always disappointed my parents by failing to marry a nice Jewish boy like my sister did, and my BIL's parents are actually an interfaith couple themselves.
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